Bottle sanitation. Whats safe?

[Bagarge]

Hey guys!

So im about to bottle again. The only product locally available to me is sodium carbonate…

I have some residue of the powder in the bottles even after rinsing several times. Is it a safe product to consume residue amounts? Will it effect the flavor/quality of my beer?

Thanks

 

[day_trippr]

Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Percarbonate? The former is an alkaline laundry detergent additive good for cutting grease and grime, but conveys little to no sanitation capability. The latter adds sodium peroxide to the sodium carbonate which does provide a level of sanitation.

It's not uncommon for a whitish film to be left behind by either of these compounds, especially with hard water involved, but neither should be considered "no rinse" agents, either, so rinse using the same temperature or hotter water than used for washing...and use a lot of water I guess...

Cheers!

 

[Bagarge]

Sodium Carbonate or Sodium Percarbonate? The former is an alkaline laundry detergent additive good for cutting grease and grime, but conveys little to no sanitation capability. The latter adds sodium peroxide to the sodium carbonate which does provide a level of sanitation.

It's not uncommon for a whitish film to be left behind by either of these compounds, especially with hard water involved, but neither should be considered "no rinse" agents, either, so rinse using the same temperature or hotter water than used for washing...and use a lot of water I guess...

Cheers!

It is sodium carbonate according the data sheet from the company. Its used for cleaning wine and milk equipment out here… i rinse each bottle after pouring and soaked them in hot water and sodium carbonate for about an hour.

I rinsed several times but still left a powdery residue. I put off bottling today because i was not sure wether to repeat the process and rinse using more water…

 

[hotbeer]

How many bottles are you going to need? You might consider just putting them in a pot of boiling water or almost boiling water for a few minutes. Make sure the inside water is at temp before calling them done.

I suppose you could also put them in a oven at about 200°F (93ish° C) and give them time to heat up and cool down. Though I'm not sure how good that dry heat is on beer bottles. Maybe another knows.

EDIT: Use @mac_1103 's temps. below. He sounds like he's actually used the oven. I was just winging that part.

 

[mac_1103]

Hopefully you will be able to get the residue out if you rinse enough with very hot water. But as mentioned this will not leave your bottles sanitized. If you don't have access to a no-rinse sanitizer like starsan, you can sanitize bottles by heating them in an oven. I heat to 175F (~80C) for about a half an hour, then turn the oven off and let it cool before removing the bottles. I know some people on the forum use higher temperatures. If you cover the bottles with aluminum foil before heating they will stay sanitized until you're ready to bottle.

 

[Bagarge]

How many bottles are you going to need? You might consider just putting them in a pot of boiling water or almost boiling water for a few minutes. Make sure the inside water is at temp before calling them done.

I suppose you could also put them in a oven at about 200°F (93ish° C) and give them time to heat up and cool down. Though I'm not sure how good that dry heat is on beer bottles. Maybe another knows.

Ive got 40 500ml bottles to do so thats not really possible. I did use this product last time i bottled with no problems. Just i notice more of a residue this time..

Like i said i generally rinse the bottle straight after pouring and dry them so no visible gunk inside.

I will have to order some starsan at some point.

 

[hotbeer]

Iodophor might be easier to find in some places. It's what I've always used. Though StarSan and Iodophor are equally available here.

 

[Bagarge]

Iodophor might be easier to find in some places. It's what I've always used. Though StarSan and Iodophor are equally available here.

I can order starsan but i have zero brewing shops in the area. Only problem is i am bottling tomorrow

 

[day_trippr]

If you can pick up some citric acid powder inexpensively, a mild solution will likely remove the white residue before using a sanitizer...

[edit] btw, that white haze is not unusual to folks that use PBW or equivalent cleaners, which are loaded with carbonate compounds that have an apparent affinity for glass For a carboy or two, one recommendation is to rinse with a white vinegar solution then plain water, and Citra Acid is a cheaper substitute for vinegar. For a few dozen bottles you'd have to decide if that's a worthwhile approach...

Cheers!

 

[Bagarge]

If you can pick up some citric acid powder inexpensively, a mild solution will likely remove the white residue before using a sanitizer...

Cheers!

I thought what i had was a sanitizer but apparently its just a cleaner… as i said i have to bottle tomorrow.
If the bottles are very very clean but not technically sterilized whats the chances i run into contamination?

 

[IslandLizard]

Iodophor might be easier to find in some places. It's what I've always used. Though StarSan and Iodophor are equally available here.

An Iodine based sanitizer (aka Povidone) in general will work fine. It's widely used in the dairy industry.
Or check with a wine producer.

 

[day_trippr]

whats the chances i run into contamination?

I'd guess roughly the same as your previous batch - which turned out fine

 

[Bagarge]

I'd guess roughly the same as your previous batch - which turned out fine

We shall see i guess. I will double wash them with super hot water tomorrow and rinse them thoroughly and then rinse again thanks for the input

 

[Bagarge]

An Iodine based sanitizer (aka Povidone) in general will work fine. It's widely used in the dairy industry.
Or check with a wine producer.

Thanks mate i will enquire about that next time im in town

 

[IslandLizard]

I have some residue of the powder in the bottles even after rinsing several times. Is it a safe product to consume residue amounts? Will it effect the flavor/quality of my beer?

Glass bottles, right?

Are you using a bottling brush when cleaning your bottles on the inside?
That should provide enough abrasive contact for thorough cleaning and also remove any dried-on remnants. That brush will also help to scrub off any dried-on "powder."

After using cleaner, are you rinsing those bottles out before letting them dry?
Each batch of bottles needs at least 2 or 3 rounds of rinsing (or shake up) with water to remove the cleaner. This process follows the "law of dilution."

After being thoroughly cleaned and rinsed, any (slight) haze forming on the inside of the bottles when dried is probably from minerals in the water and can be ignored.

But sanitizing right before filling with beer is encouraged, yes. The caps also need to be sanitized right before crimping onto the bottle.

 

[Bagarge]

Glass bottles, right?

Are you using a bottling brush when cleaning your bottles on the inside?
That should provide enough abrasive contact for thorough cleaning and also remove any dried-on remnants. That brush will also help to scrub off any dried-on "powder."

After using cleaner, are you rinsing those bottles out before letting them dry?
Each batch of bottles needs at least 2 or 3 rounds of rinsing (or shake up) with water to remove the cleaner. This process follows the "law of dilution."

After being thoroughly cleaned and rinsed, any (slight) haze forming on the inside of the bottles when dried is probably from minerals in the water and can be ignored.

But sanitizing right before filling with beer is encouraged, yes. The caps also need to be sanitized right before crimping onto the bottle.

Hey lizard!

Yep, glass brown bottles. I dont use a brush as I literally rinse several times after pouring and then dry and store. No particles left inside.

I do rinse several times with hot water but this time i noticed a powdery residue.

The bottles are very clean, i think i will go old school and take the time to boil up the bottles in my new 50litre pot for 10 minutes, rinse and allow to dry and cool before bottling. I have a nice pilsner ready to bottle and i want no hiccups with this batch…

All the caps i will through in the boiling water also just to make sure.

Next step, buy some starsan
Good to hear from you

 

[IslandLizard]

I dont use a brush as I literally rinse several times after pouring and then dry and store. No particles left i

Not using a bottle brush could work fine for you. Until some day when it doesn't.
Start looking for one, to use next time.

Next step, buy some starsan

If you can get it, yes! And there's no need to make buckets full of it. 1-4 liters is usually plenty.
You can mop it onto surfaces (e.g., the inside of fermenters) using a washcloth. As long as there's 1-2 minutes of contact time, the (already clean) surface should be sanitary by then.

When possible, use soft water (low in minerals) to make a working solution. It will last weeks or even longer that way.

 

[Bagarge]

Not using a bottle brush could work fine for you. Until some day when it doesn't.
Start looking for one, to use next time.


If you can get it, yes! And there's no need to make buckets full of it. 1-4 liters is usually plenty.
You can mop it onto surfaces (e.g., the inside of fermenters) using a washcloth. As long as there's 1-2 minutes of contact time, the (already clean) surface should be sanitary by then.

When possible, use soft water (low in minerals) to make a working solution. It will last weeks or even longer that way.

Would you recommend starsan as the number one for sterilisation? I have seen its very common for brewers to use.
Is it a no rinse product? If so i will order a bucket load of it for the amount of time it will save me

 

[day_trippr]

Star San is my go to sanitizer (not sterilizer) and is for many folks on HBT. Totally no-rinse, indeed best left wet...

Cheers!

 

[Bagarge]

Star San is my go to sanitizer (not sterilizer) and is for many folks on HBT. Totally no-rinse, indeed best left wet...

Cheers!

Good to know i will definitely pick some up when i can Sanitizer yes, still getting to grips with all the terminology

 

[IslandLizard]

Would you recommend starsan as the number one for sterilisation? I have seen its very common for brewers to use.

Starsan doesn't sterilize, it sanitizes, which is usually all we need to do for brewing, winemaking, etc.
Mind, we can only sanitize a surface that's already clean. IOW, you can't sanitize dirt.

Iodine (Povidone) based sanitizers are very good to use too. And arguably even better than Starsan in killing surface germs. But a working solution is only active for 24 hours (max).

A Starsan working solution can last for weeks, or month even. Many of us, homebrewers, can give testimony to that. That is, as long as the pH remains under 3.0, which is easy to check with a small piece of pH paper. See *Note below.

I'm a stubborn Starsan user, clinging to the old (proven) method and storage, trusting my half-sized bucket with 3 gallons of working solution until I'm getting grossed out by it.
Haven't encountered any issues yet, and there must me legions of users out there that haven't either.

Now, when I handle yeast, such as making starters, I use a freshly made solution, no older than a week or so, as I've have always done, and successfully.

* Note:
At least, that's been the traditional knowledge on Starsan and its use for many, many years.
Until fairly recently... when the manufacturer changed their "recommendations." [Link to their FAQ]
They now recommend not to use it after 1 hour (!). No explanation for that sudden and drastic change to be found, while the (reported) ingredients have remained the same.
Go figure...

 

[PCABrewing]

When possible, use soft water (low in minerals) to make a working solution. It will last weeks or even longer that way.

Or distilled water if you can get it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Or distilled water if you can get it.

Or RO (Reverse Osmosis) water if that's cheaper or easier to get. It's just as good for brewing or making sanitizer solutions.

Distilled water in Europe was always crazy expensive and not commonly available. I hope things like those have changed for the better.

 

[IslandLizard]

The only product locally available to me is sodium carbonate…

That's a fine cleaner for all brewing equipment, including bottles. It's highly alkaline, and makes your skin feel slick and soapy as it removes the oils from your skin. So rinse off well. It's fairly safe, and not caustic. Just don't get it in your eyes, and if you do, it needs to be washed out immediately, carefully, and thoroughly. You may want to contact or see a doctor afterwards, for all security.

Depending on how dirty things are, 15-30 grams per 2-3 liters should suffice. It works better when used warm or even hot or boiling.

It's the main component in old fashioned powdered laundry detergents, and does not bleach. There is very little need to add anything else to it for most cleaning purposes.

It's also a main component in Oxiclean which also contains an similar oxygen releasing compound (Sodium Percarbonate). When the oxygen has been released, the compound that remains is also sodium carbonate.

I think the oxygen release is very overrated, so you may as well stick to using the elementary sodium carbonate.

If needed, for some extra cleaning and degreasing power you can add some some TSP (TriSodium Phosphate) or a phosphate-free substitute (such as Sodium MetaSilicate). That would simulate PBW, alas without (overrated) oxygen.

 

[Jeroen79]

Its better to have them cleaned properly and not sanitized then just sanitizing them without cleaning them fully!

 

[Bagarge]

So the bottles are very very clean. I opted to boiling them in water in my 50l kettle. 37 bottles fit in there so works out pretty much perfect.

Only downside is i will have to wait quite a while for the bottles to cool down and dry. Might get another brew on in the mean time

 

[IslandLizard]

Only downside is i will have to wait quite a while for the bottles to cool down and dry.

They do need to be cooled down somewhat, but not necessarily dry.

Reason is, you're still gonna dunk them in (cold) Starsan, right? They'll be cool and wet again with a "film" of Starsan clinging on them, which is how they remain sanitized.

Right before you stick the filling tube in them, you do want as much Starsan drained from them, yes.

 

[Jeroen79]

He didn't have any starsan, so he is just gonna clean, and he is from Europe so he would also have to rinse the starsan, the don't fear the foam doesn't apply here.

 

[IslandLizard]

He didn't have any starsan,

Yeah, I just realized that.
So the hot water from re-rinsing the bottles is his standard of sanitation right now.
Let's hope that water was really hot!

and he is from Europe so he would also have to rinse the starsan, the don't fear the foam doesn't apply here.

I know he's in Portugal, yes.
Is rinsing Starsan the "norm" there, really?
How about Iodophor?

 

[Bagarge]

I can order starsan but i need to bottle now. I am set up and prepped. Bottles were boiled for about 30 mins very hot!
Rinsed well and let to dry.

If there is a small amount of moisture in the bottles is that ok?

Also, i mentioned the bottles were soaked in sodium carbonate for at least an hour in hot water and thoroughly rinsed out. Then boiled the **** out if them…. Fingers crossed

 

[IslandLizard]

Rinsed well and let to dry.

Why rinsing after boiling?
The boiling (or very hot) water would have sanitized them quite well.

If there is a small amount of moisture in the bottles is that ok?

Probably OK...
Just drain as much out as you can before filling.

 

[Jeroen79]

I know he's in Portugal, yes.
Is rinsing Starsan the "norm" there, really?
How about Iodophor?

Yes rinsing is the norm these days, they took it off the shelves a while ago, but now it it back but the new packaging states it needs to be rinsed.

There some more info here

No idea about Iodophor , its not readably available to the home brewer here.

 

[hotbeer]

Don't need to wait for the bottles to dry. Just need to let them cool down enough to be handled if you boil them to sanitize them. Once you turn them upside down, any remaining water is insignificant.

Waiting for them to dry, which in my humidity might take days when upside down, the air currents might carry dust with yeast and other microbes into the bottles.

 

[IslandLizard]

No idea about Iodophor , its not readably available to the home brewer here.

I meant Iodine (Povidone) based sanitizers, generally. Technically they're all Iodophors.

Medical Definition of a Iodophor:
A complex of iodine and a surface-active agent that releases iodine gradually and serves as a disinfectant.

Re: Starsan

Yes rinsing is the norm these days, they took it off the shelves a while ago, but now it it back but the new packaging states it needs to be rinsed.

:wow:

 

[Bagarge]

Why rinsing after boiling?
The boiling (or very hot) water would have sanitized them quite well.


Probably OK...
Just drain as much out as you can before filling.

I mean i rinsed them in the boiling water shaking it out vigorously…

Cooled down quick enough. All bottled now and the pilsner is in the hands of god

 

[DuncB]

Dishwasher on the medical cycle is an option as bottling imminent.
But many use this as their sanitising phase.

 

[jerrylotto]

I sanitize my bottles in the oven at 350F. It has the added value of drying them thoroughly after cleaning them. If there is residue to remove, that is a part of the bottle cleaning step and I've often had to resort to a bottle brush although I'm sure there are expensive or complicated chemical treatments that would do the job also. I prime each of the cooled, sanitized bottles with 5 ml of sugar solution which I make by dissolving the appropriate amount of priming sugar (1 tsp / bottle typically) in boiling water to make each tsp 5 ml. Since I rarely bottle more than a couple of six packs and keg the rest of each batch, this has worked out to be the simplest process since I force carb the keg after I fill the bottles.

 

[jerrylotto]

No idea about Iodophor , its not readably available to the home brewer here.

I bought a gallon of Five Star IO-Star sanitizer and make up a solution with 10 ml in 1 gal of water as my liquid sanitizer. 3 years later and it is only about 1/2 gone.

 

[IslandLizard]

Dishwasher on the medical cycle

Hah! Haven't seen those around yet.

The next step could be to pressurize them...

 

[Rish]

I rinse my bottles shortly after emptying, put in a 6 pack carton then when I have time I cover the opening of the bottles with a 2X2 piece of aluminum foil. When I have an oven full, I put them in a cold oven, set the temp for 180°F, hold there for 20 minutes, turn it off then let the oven cool down, usually overnight. I do this as I go so I have bottles ready to go and don't have to worry about prepping them on bottling days.