Bottle Conditioning: Cider vs Beer

[Upthewazzu]

Howdy,

I've brewed 5 or 6 batches of beer and carbed 'em all in the bottle. Will be bottling my first batch of cider in the next couple of weeks and wanted to know what, if any, differences there may be. I keep reading about exploding bottles and such when back sweetening (which is what I'll be doing). Is there a reason that bottle bombs are more common in cider? My beer usually ferments to 1.010 - 1.013 and I've only ever experienced one bottle bomb (a way over-carbed batch of witbier). My cider hit an FG of 1.003 using Wyeast 4766 Cider yeast, and will have been cold-crashed, sort of, in secondary at 44° for at least 3 weeks. Is the risk for bottle bombs being over stated or should I be genuinely scared?

EDIT: Subject Line should say "Bottle Carbing: Cider vs Beer"

 

[llvllayhem]

Even though you plan on cold crashing, there could still be a chance of yeast remaining in suspension. Back sweetening with more apple juice or other fermentable sweeteners with yeast in suspension could cause bottle bombs. To be 100% safe, use unfermentable sweetener, or just pasturize the bottles.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I understand all of that. I'm just asking why no one ever worries about pasteurizing the beer after its been carbed but I see all kinds of warnings about pasteurizing cider. Why the concern?

 

[AbstractBrewer]

I also wonder about this one.

What I did was carb just as you would with beer. Priming sugar the same as you would for the same volume of beer. Mine has been sitting in the EZ cap bottle for about 2 weeks now, still very little carb though. 150g of dextrose to 5gal of cider. Nothing even close to exploding. It has me wondering if the yeast is still going to do the job. Maybe the ABV is too high?

 

[KD28]

Heres a stupid question that I'm sure everyone else knows.
What is an unfermentable sweetener?

 

[AppleChex]

An unfermentable sweetener is something like a sugar alcohol (e.g. xylitol) or sucralose that yeast can't eat.

 

[hilts]

Heres a stupid question that I'm sure everyone else knows.
What is an unfermentable sweetener?

Splenda, stevia, nutrasweet, aspartame....aka 'fake sugar'.

 

[KD28]

Got it.
Thanks guys.

 

[PRE66_6TART]

I understand all of that. I'm just asking why no one ever worries about pasteurizing the beer after its been carbed but I see all kinds of warnings about pasteurizing cider. Why the concern?

You don't pasteurize beer because there are no more fermentable sugars left. You add a specific amount of priming sugar, which produces a specific amount of co2. If you let your cider finish fermenting, and then just added priming sugar and bottled it wouldn't explode either. The problem with cider isn't the cider itself, it's the back-sweetening. If you back-sweetened beer you'd have the same problem, you'd have to stop the yeast before it can eat all the extra sugar.

 

[JtotheA]

I wish I had some beer batches under my belt (which is going to happen when I have more time), but yes I wonder the same thing about overcarbing with cider. How can it be that different? I am unconventional and don't backsweeten, don't add sulfites, no keg, don't pastuerize. Kudos to Cvillekevin for his wealth of info in the sticky! I've brewed cider for 3 years maybe about 100 batches if I had to guess.
I rack and coldcrash between 1.15 and 1.05 and then bottle carb/condition at a cool room temp. No bottle bombs, knock on wood!
Unfortunately there's no hard facts doing it my way other than the fact that my cider remains sweet-ish and sometimes it takes a long time to carb in the bottle. Doesn't matter to me or any friends I share it with if it's carbed or barely carbed. I'm all about what Cvillekevin does, and that is getting rid of the yeast by racking carefully, but at the same time, hoping there's still a little yeast left to carb since I don't backsweeten or prime. I keep it simple. Some would say the simple way is to ferment dry and backsweeten/prime. I've done that but I like my way better. I can either drink from the jug or bottle. That's my 2 or 3 cents

 

[JtotheA]

And just want to add that I strictly use ale yeast. High flocculating ale yeasts. My method probably wont work with crazy yeasts like 1118. Although I did have success with it's tame cousin 1116 and another hungry one D-47 which was good. Notty and S-04 are quite reliable to start with as suggested by Cvillekevin.

 

[PRE66_6TART]

I wish I had some beer batches under my belt (which is going to happen when I have more time), but yes I wonder the same thing about overcarbing with cider. How can it be that different? I am unconventional and don't backsweeten, don't add sulfites, no keg, don't pastuerize. Kudos to Cvillekevin for his wealth of info in the sticky! I've brewed cider for 3 years maybe about 100 batches if I had to guess.
I rack and coldcrash between 1.15 and 1.05 and then bottle carb/condition at a cool room temp. No bottle bombs, knock on wood!
Unfortunately there's no hard facts doing it my way other than the fact that my cider remains sweet-ish and sometimes it takes a long time to carb in the bottle. Doesn't matter to me or any friends I share it with if it's carbed or barely carbed. I'm all about what Cvillekevin does, and that is getting rid of the yeast by racking carefully, but at the same time, hoping there's still a little yeast left to carb since I don't backsweeten or prime. I keep it simple. Some would say the simple way is to ferment dry and backsweeten/prime. I've done that but I like my way better. I can either drink from the jug or bottle. That's my 2 or 3 cents

Do you drink them pretty quickly after bottling? I made some beer recently with WLP002 (very high flocculating), and it had apparently flocced out prematurely, leaving some fermentable sugars behind. I thought it was done and bottled, and the carb levels were good for a month or two, but eventually the yeast got around to eating up the rest of sugar and I started getting geysers.

I would expect the same to happen with cider. If there's enough yeast to carbonate, and there's still fermentable sugar left, I would think they will eventually consume it and cause problems.

 

[JtotheA]

Yeah that's kinda the crapshoot with what I was talking about. My sweeter batches that end up in bottles to carb will go to the fridge and stay there...and be drunk sooner than later. The dryer batches are more reliable and can sit around outside of the fridge.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of inconsistancy considering different yeasts, different types and amounts of sugars left to still ferment.
Isn't that what makes this our hobby?! Ha

Just curious...do beer brewers cold-crash too or is that more cider-based?

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

PRE66 hit the nail on the head.

You ferment beer to it's terminal gravity which in beer could be 1.015 to 1.005. Beer contains some unfermentable sugars.

Cider on the other hand do not have these unfermentable sugars from the malt. ALL of the sugars are fermentable. So they yeast eat everything and terminal gravity is usually around 1.000 or below.

To recap, you prime with sugar at terminal gravity. (Meaning no more fermentable sugars left) If not, you have to figure out a way to kill the yeasties and stop them from consuming more than the priming sugar.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Just curious...do beer brewers cold-crash too or is that more cider-based?

Some beer brewers do cold crash, but it's usually to clear the beer not to slow fermentation. Cider makers utilize cold crashing to clear also, but depending on the yeast strain you can actually slow fermentation with cold temps.

It's the same science in both cases. The cold drops the little guys down to the bottom of the vessel and puts them to sleep.

OH...and then there's lagering some yeasts love the cold temps and keep right on happily eating sugars at temps around 40ºF. Those darn little bottom feeders are about impossible to put down.

 

[Randzor]

Its preety simple. Wait till fermentation is finished and then bottle prime like a beer. Most people with bottle bombs don't want a dry cider.and do not follow the pasteurization forum.

 

[Upthewazzu]

Just curious...do beer brewers cold-crash too or is that more cider-based?

Yes and no, depends on the style and the brewer. I cold crash everything that is supposed to be clear, some people don't care. Hefe's and Belgians generally are supposed to be cloudy/hazy.

Thanks to everyone who answered my question.

 

[llvllayhem]

I usually make the cider for SWMBO, who likes her cider on the sweeter side. So if I must bottle, pausturizing is a necessity.