Bottle Conditioning better than bulk, argue against logically...

[KilhavenBrew]

I noticed that after putting beer in a 2ndary for 4 weeks to bulk condition, it was not as good as when I bottled after only 1 week in the 2ndary and then bottled.

Same batch experiment: Both aged 7 weeks total after initial fermentation.

2 weeks primary + 4 weeks 2ndary + 3 weeks in bottle = good beer.
2 weeks primary + 1 week 2ndary + 6 weeks in bottle = Better beer.

And the reason I argue has to do with yeast settling in the bottle. After only 3 weeks for carbonation, I note that I can still taste some yeast off flavors. But after 6 weeks, no yeast off flavors.

I am pretty new at this, so I welcome a logical argument other than simply saying "I like Yeast off flavors"

Best Regards...

 

[Revvy]

It really doesn't matter how long you bulk age your beer. There STILL is something intrinsically good for your beers when you bottle them. You can have a beer in secondary for 6 months or more, and if you open it too early it can still taste green and off and need time to BOTTLE CONDITION.

Part of it has to do I think with the scrubbing action of the co2...and also with the second true fermentation that you get when you introduce the yeast to your fresh priming sugar. They AGAIN clean up after themselves like they do when you bulk condition in long primary or secondary. There are a lot of things that further get removed (like even any diacytal) generated in the bottle during carbing.

And it's going to be different for every beer, every batch of beer, every gravity of beer, and every yeast pitched for beer. So really there are so many variables involved in every brew, that no matter what the result of any singular experiment is only really going to be reflective of THAT BATCH OF BEER...It's not like we're Budwieser or stone or any commercial breweries that have every facet of the process computer controlled and dialed in. In our case every batch is different, even splitting a batch into two fermenters is going to have two different results.

There is nothing "typical" in brewing...every fermentation is different, and should not be used to compare one with another...you can't do that.

No two fermentations are ever exactly the same.

When we are dealing with living creatures, there is a wild card factor in play..Just like with other animals, including humans...No two behave the same.

You can split a batch in half put them in 2 identical carboys, and pitch equal amounts of yeast from the same starter...and have them act completely differently...for some reason on a subatomic level...think about it...yeasties are small...1 degree difference in temp to us, could be a 50 degree difference to them...one fermenter can be a couple degrees warmer because it's closer to a vent all the way across the room and the yeasties take off...

Someone, Grinder I think posted a pic once of 2 carboys touching each other, and one one of the carboys the krausen had formed only on the side that touched the other carboy...probably reacting to the heat of the first fermentation....but it was like symbiotic or something...

But yeah you can't really escape a need for some conditioning with CO2, both in the bottle or the keg.

 

[KilhavenBrew]

So what is the point of 2ndary bulk conditioning other than simply clarification? Cause I get clear beers in 1 week in the 2ndary.

 

[Revvy]

It's another level of the yeast cleaning up after itself....it's the stuff that is done BEFORE the "co2 scrub" I referred to.

I think you want to make this an either or, like so many new brewers feel compelled to do. Make everything a "versus" argument. One over the other.

When it truth it's both....I thought I explained it pretty well in my above post when I talked about the refermentation that happens and the addition of co2 in the bottle. That's AFTER whatever the yeast and the time in the vessel do.

You ever paint room? Think about it this way, bulk aging is the primer you out on the wall first, the killz or whatever you use....the bottle conditioning is the paint job on top of that. You really should use both.

However nowadays a lot of us don't use secondaries, our primer coat is a long primary instead.

 

[KilhavenBrew]

OK, good logical argument on the first post. And understood on the 2nd.

What is a long primary? 3 weeks good for most beers? (I know all beers are different but what is a good long first to help eliminate need for a 2ndary?)

 

[lotusworker]

I have to say that I have found the bottle condition to be good for me too. I only make my batch and use 1 primary for about 2 weeks and FG then bottle. I have found that conditioning for at least 3-4 weeks has been the best. I start to put a couple in the frigid and wait a week before I sample. Has always worked for me, so don't really give it much thought.

 

[Revvy]

OK, good logical argument on the first post. And understood on the 2nd.

What is a long primary? 3 weeks good for most beers? (I know all beers are different but what is a good long first to help eliminate need for a 2ndary?)

This has been discussed to death here, almost daily, and in great depth several times, rather than re-inventing the wheel, why don't you read what's already been written on the topic, you can start here, but you can find the rest of the discussions easily. There's even a thread about someone wanting to do an experiment up in the active part of the forum today.

This is your best source.

 

[rexbanner]

Bottling is a pain in the ass. The best beer is the one in your hand. Just kidding, I actually wait a while. I go with a long primary, 2+ weeks in secondary, and 2 weeks carbing in the keg. For hoppy beers, I skip aroma hop additions and instead add them as hop tea using a french press right before kegging, that way no hop flavor fades. IMO, the only reason not to age a beer just a little is if it's roasty, or if it's hoppy. Using hop tea, you can still bulk age hoppy beers and not lose flavor.

P.S. I'm still a big secondary fan. It gets more yeast to drop out before you keg, which is important if you cart your keg all over the place cause it will get shaken up. You can also tweak beers by adding more stuff during secondary. I recently turned a sucky beer into a great beer this way. 30+ batches, zero infections.

 

[Moonlighter]

You ever paint room? Think about it this way, bulk aging is the primer you out on the wall first, the killz or whatever you use....the bottle conditioning is the paint job on top of that. You really should use both.

However nowadays a lot of us don't use secondaries, our primer coat is a long primary instead.

That's a great visual; that communicates quite well with a noob like me - thanks!

 

[jrhslick1]

The following has not failed me yet! 2 weeks in primary, 2-3 weeks in the 2ndary (depending on product) then bulk primed and bottled. I always bulk prime and results do vary depending on the type of product being brewed. I typically use 2/3 to 3/4 cup of priming sugar boiled down in 1-1/2 to 2 cups of filtered water per 5gal batch then bottle. Another 3 to 4 weeks in the bottle before cracking them open. Patience is a virtue!
I do find that as long as the lock on the fermenter and 2ndary is tight, the length of time in those only allows the product to get better with time. I had gotten busy and left one in the 2ndary for 6 weeks before bottling. It came out wonderfully smooth and with zero yeast taste at all after another 3 weeks in the bottles.
It pays to have enough bottles on hand to support at least 2 full batches so in waiting for your product to get "good", you don't run out!!!
I've been brewing for 20+ years

 

[Sammy86]

The following has not failed me yet! 2 weeks in primary, 2-3 weeks in the 2ndary (depending on product) then bulk primed and bottled. I always bulk prime and results do vary depending on the type of product being brewed. I typically use 2/3 to 3/4 cup of priming sugar boiled down in 1-1/2 to 2 cups of filtered water per 5gal batch then bottle. Another 3 to 4 weeks in the bottle before cracking them open. Patience is a virtue!
I do find that as long as the lock on the fermenter and 2ndary is tight, the length of time in those only allows the product to get better with time. I had gotten busy and left one in the 2ndary for 6 weeks before bottling. It came out wonderfully smooth and with zero yeast taste at all after another 3 weeks in the bottles.
It pays to have enough bottles on hand to support at least 2 full batches so in waiting for your product to get "good", you don't run out!!!
I've been brewing for 20+ years

Don't think you're going to get a response...last post was from 2011

 

[jrhslick1]

Lol! It was an opportunity to voice my opinion!

 

[bracconiere]

Don't think you're going to get a response...last post was from 2011

no man! i'm down! like the yeast in the bottle! only reason i don't only spend $10 a lb for baker's yeast and use it for brewing....

edit: i prefer my yeast in milk....

 

[bracconiere]

Lol! It was an opportunity to voice my opinion!

i know, sometimes something irks you...and you just have to speak up..