Bottle Carbing Idea (Final Data Review)

[RukusDM]

No! These results do not reflect each other.

Pimento's cider was dry, with just enough priming sugar added to achieve carbonation. It makes sense that it would take a week to two weeks to carbonate. With less sugar in solution, the yeast have a harder time finding it and consuming it. It's the same principle that causes wine and mead to ferment 90% relatively quick, but often that last 10% takes time, usually in an actual secondary vessel. It's the same reason a beer can ferment out in as little as 3 days, but will take a week or two weeks to carbonate because the yeast has settled, there are fewer cells in the bottles, and less sugar added back in.


RukusDM's cider was sweet.... what, like 1.012... and wasn't cold crashed to drop cells, and then even more sugar added to prime. Just because you both had similar results in the time it took to carbonate does not mean you've replicated each other's experiments. I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around those results. I urge you to repeat this experiment before you draw any conclusions. I once bottled beer with a filthy tube that I didn't sanitize, I also used my mouth to create the siphon, and didn't use mouthwash first. I got no infection. That does not mean it's acceptable practice.

I don't want to crap on your work, I enjoy and appreciate it, especially the water bath temp/time curves.

I think you need to do more research before you draw any conclusions. And as a pessimist, I believe you'll find too many variables that you can't control that will swing the results every time.

How many of the variables are changed when you don't do the testing we have done and bottle carb anyway?

Nothing has changed in the pasteurization method that Pappers has put together other than how we build in a safety by measuring pressure, and use lower temperatures to complete the pasteurization.

I think if you are going to do Pasteurization, you should have a method to measure pressure or you will most defiantly run the risk of popping some.

You think this is less safe than current methods?

 

[Fletch78]

Well its true the testing isn't complete, however I didn't make these numbers up. Perhaps you could do some testing to verify?

I didn't say you made up the numbers. Relax.

I have tested, but didn't plot the data. They were mental notes. I outlined my last gallon of cider results on page one. They are very distant from your results. You chose to ignore those, but accept pimentos. Are you doing what scientists often do, unintentionally; accepting results similar to yours while ignoring results that contradict your own?

 

[Fletch78]

Also.... I am one of two people who prosted this topic. I'm not trying to heckle you.

 

[RukusDM]

I didn't say you made up the numbers. Relax.

I have tested, but didn't plot the data. They were mental notes. I outlined my last gallon of cider results on page one. They are very distant from your results. You chose to ignore those, but accept pimentos. Are you doing what scientists often do, unintentionally; accepting results similar to yours while ignoring results that contradict your own?

If you would read more carefully, you would find I Said tests are not complete. I mentioned someone having a event where a bottle carbed in 12 hours, and I was concerned.

 

[RukusDM]

I got my hands on 2 more gauges in the 0 - 100 Psi. I'll be able to do several tests at a time. I should be able to do a Champagne, Notty and another S-04 Carbonation all at the same time.

I have to get 6 Gallons of cider fermenting with the different yeasts first. I'll try and stop after work Monday to get the stuff.

I will try and get a very aggressive carbonation going with a but load of sugar to see what that produces with Champagne yeast, unless someone has a more aggressive one I should try.

I may elect to can the S-04 and go with the S-05 if I can find it. I havn't seen that at the local brew shop.

That would help reproduce what Fletch had seen in his test. Perhaps S-05 and a but-load of sugar 1.020 at SG finish to see what happens pressure wise during carbing.

Fletch, could you give me a rough recipe you used to produce that batch of cider so I can get as close as I can?

 

[pimento]

No! These results do not reflect each other.

Pimento's cider was dry, with just enough priming sugar added to achieve carbonation. It makes sense that it would take a week to two weeks to carbonate. With less sugar in solution, the yeast have a harder time finding it and consuming it. It's the same principle that causes wine and mead to ferment 90% relatively quick, but often that last 10% takes time, usually in an actual secondary vessel. It's the same reason a beer can ferment out in as little as 3 days, but will take a week or two weeks to carbonate because the yeast has settled, there are fewer cells in the bottles, and less sugar added back in.


RukusDM's cider was sweet.... what, like 1.012... and wasn't cold crashed to drop cells, and then even more sugar added to prime. Just because you both had similar results in the time it took to carbonate does not mean you've replicated each other's experiments. I am still having a hard time wrapping my mind around those results. I urge you to repeat this experiment before you draw any conclusions. I once bottled beer with a filthy tube that I didn't sanitize, I also used my mouth to create the siphon, and didn't use mouthwash first. I got no infection. That does not mean it's acceptable practice.

I don't want to crap on your work, I enjoy and appreciate it, especially the water bath temp/time curves.

I think you need to do more research before you draw any conclusions. And as a pessimist, I believe you'll find too many variables that you can't control that will swing the results every time.

If you'd bothered to read my full post you'd see that only half my graff was done dry, the other half was backsweetened to a level similar to RukusDMs.

I have just now finished pasteurizing the whole batch and there was very little difference in carbonation between the two.

Your theory that wine and mead slows down in the last 10% because of less sugar is entirely unfounded and honestly, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Wines and meads slow down in the later stages because the nutrients get used up. It has nothing to do with there being less sugar. Re-read Cvillekevins posts and pay attention to when he talks about keeving and using low-nitrogen apples. Yeast in the absence of nutrients, particularly nitrogen will slow down and eventually go dormant.

As far as the cider I just pasteurized, both the dry and the sweet were somewhat over carbonated and yes, I think I got lucky not having and bottles break. Next time I will probably pasteurize at 17-18psi.

That is the point of RukusDMs post, he hasn't drawn any conclusions. He simply posted his findings on his experiments. It's an attempt to find a reliable, repeatable pressure at which bottle pasteurization can be done.

 

[RukusDM]

I must say I'm a bit confused as your bottles having more carbonation than mine with the same pressures. I did not use the higher temperature though, I used 160, and they have a nice initial head but not allot of carb, but something I would not mind having every day.

Any chance they weren't cooled down to normal fridge temps before you opened?

Thinking....hmmmf.

 

[RukusDM]

Is graff something that might be more on the acidic side or more toward the base side of the ph scale?

Mine was more on the acidic side as I had added Citric Acid to tart the stuff up prior to bottling. hmmm

 

[pimento]

I must say I'm a bit confused as your bottles having more carbonation than mine with the same pressures. I did not use the higher temperature though, I used 160, and they have a nice initial head but not allot of carb, but something I would not mind having every day.

Any chance they weren't cooled down to normal fridge temps before you opened?

Thinking....hmmmf.

They were room temp, before pasteurizing. I expect they will get less foamy once refrigerated, but still a higher carb than i'd like.

I'm bottling another cider next week, so we'll see how that stacks up.

 

[RukusDM]

Sounds good. Perhaps with your new higher range gauge we could get some real data on pressures during Pasteurization.

 

[RukusDM]

I just recalled something. I took a sixer of this stuff over to my neigbors last week to have a couple with him.

We drank a couple...They were chilled. The last one he opened had a mild gusher and lost a oz or so of cider. We had just opened 4 with nothing like this. We drank these prior to Pasteurization, as they were still in the bottle conditioning stage.

I took a look at his bottle and it had more yeast on the bottom than I had seen with any of the bottles. Its possible when I bottled the last few from the bucket, I got some lees from the bottom in them.

 

[Fletch78]

Your theory that wine and mead slows down in the last 10% because of less sugar is entirely unfounded and honestly, I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Wines and meads slow down in the later stages because the nutrients get used up. It has nothing to do with there being less sugar. Re-read Cvillekevins posts and pay attention to when he talks about keeving and using low-nitrogen apples. Yeast in the absence of nutrients, particularly nitrogen will slow down and eventually go dormant.

Unfounded? This is from the Mead Sticky by hightest.. his Staggered Nutrient Addition link. It contradicts you. Should he re-read Cville's sticky too?


http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/SNAddition.pdf

 

[pimento]

Unfounded? This is from the Mead Sticky by hightest.. his Staggered Nutrient Addition link. It contradicts you. Should he re-read Cville's sticky too?


http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/SNAddition.pdf

Did you even bother to read your own link?

Can you point to me where hightest mentions mead fermentation slowing down because of lower sugar levels in the last 10%?

Notice that he never says that.

In fact he's saying the same thing I did, that yeast with to little nutrients will slow down later in fermentation.

His entire stepped nutrient additions are planned to stop the slow down.

Apparently you're having comprehension issues with this paragraph

The nutrient quantities were changed based on conversations with Dr. Clayton Cone wherein I learned that he recommended the bulk of the nutrients be added before 30% sugar depletion - the yeast are usually well into their stationary phase at 50% sugar depletion and cannot utilize the nutrients as well as they can before 30% depletion. As such, the NAS (second revision) now adds 85% of the nutrient nitrogen before 30% sugar depletion.

He is saying that the yeast do no utilize the nutrients well after 30% sugar depletion, not that lack of sugar is the cause.

Nutrients applied before the 30% depletion help the yeast build healthy cells, budd and process sugar so they can remain healthy later in the fermentation process.

To put it simply nutrients early on make for stronger yeast cells which don't slow down later in fermentation.

This doesn't contradict what I said at all,

Wines and meads slow down in the later stages because the nutrients get used up. It has nothing to do with there being less sugar. Re-read Cvillekevins posts and pay attention to when he talks about keeving and using low-nitrogen apples. Yeast in the absence of nutrients, particularly nitrogen will slow down and eventually go dormant.

The nutrients get used up, the cells are weaker and eventually slow down.

Sorry for the derail RukusDM.

 

[pimento]

I just recalled something. I took a sixer of this stuff over to my neigbors last week to have a couple with him.

We drank a couple...They were chilled. The last one he opened had a mild gusher and lost a oz or so of cider. We had just opened 4 with nothing like this. We drank these prior to Pasteurization, as they were still in the bottle conditioning stage.

I took a look at his bottle and it had more yeast on the bottom than I had seen with any of the bottles. Its possible when I bottled the last few from the bucket, I got some lees from the bottom in them.

I just cracked open my gauged pop bottle and it had less carbonation than the rest.

It may be that when I split the batches the priming sugar wasn't mixed well and that bottle got a bit less.

I won't be splitting this coming batch, so we'll see how it compares.

 

[Fletch78]

No, you said yeast slow down because they run out of nutrients.

The fact is that yeast can't use the nutrients after the 1/2 (or 2/3, there is debate) sugar break.

The last 10% of fermentation is well after both the 1/2 and 2/3 sugar break.

The OP asked for opinions on his/her data, I gave my opinion, and you don't like it. Fine. If I keep participating in this thread, it's going to get locked and sent to a place where the plebians can't enjoy it. I want plebians to enjoy it. Have fun with the rest of this. I'm done.

 

[RukusDM]

I just cracked open my gauged pop bottle and it had less carbonation than the rest.

It may be that when I split the batches the priming sugar wasn't mixed well and that bottle got a bit less.

I won't be splitting this coming batch, so we'll see how it compares.

That might explain the overcarb on the others but having the same pressure as I had.

 

[RukusDM]

To be clear, are you adding priming sugar to a dry, cold crashed, racked cider?

Because I recently cold crashed a fermenting cider at 1.020 ... bottled... and tested 12 hours later and had adequate carbonation. If noobs read this, and think it will take two weeks for their sweet cider to carbonate in the bottle before pasteurizing, someone is going to die. Can you give more info, preferably edited into your OP, about the cider going into your experiment?

Fletch, as I mentioned in the PM, I found some S-05 yeast. Thanks for passing your recipe on to me. I don't have a 1 Gallon ferment jug, however I do have a 3 Liter, I should be able to produce your initial conditions. I don't use camp-den, but I'll get some this week and put that in the batch as well.

This should put me in the position of getting close to your original situation. Do you know roughly what temperature you fermented at?

I'll stop it at 1.020 and put into my pressure bottle and also regular beer bottles and condition to see what the pressure curve is. Also I think you already provided, however what was your bottle conditioning temperature. Roughly that is.

Regards
Doug

 

[Fletch78]

Rukus, your PM box must be full.

Ferm temp low 60's, no exact number. Campden was only added 24 hours prior because it was raw and for all I know this lady accidentally ground up one of the stray cats in the cider press. Bottle conditioned is 72, almost exactly, kitchen counter temp.

Thought #1:

I didn't use a pressure gauge. I went by bubbles and foam in the glass when poured. 12 hours, "carbonated". It occurred to me just now, there is already alot of CO2 dissolved in the cider from fermentation... I just degassed another batch by gently swirling the carboy and this occurred to me. Because there was so much CO2 already in the liquid, a long wait for the bottle to carb wasn't necessary.



Thought #2:

It went from 1.056 to 1.020 in about 6 days. That equals about 6 gravity points a day, or 3 gravity points every 12 hours. My understanding, I've read somewhere, it's less than 1 gravity point that is necessary to carbonate a beer. Doing a quick calculation, a standard 5 oz of priming sugar in a 5 gallon batch of beer only bumps the gravity by 0.001.

 

[RukusDM]

Rukus, your PM box must be full.

Ferm temp low 60's, no exact number. Campden was only added 24 hours prior because it was raw and for all I know this lady accidentally ground up one of the stray cats in the cider press. Bottle conditioned is 72, almost exactly, kitchen counter temp.

Thought #1:

I didn't use a pressure gauge. I went by bubbles and foam in the glass when poured. 12 hours, "carbonated". It occurred to me just now, there is already alot of CO2 dissolved in the cider from fermentation... I just degassed another batch by gently swirling the carboy and this occurred to me. Because there was so much CO2 already in the liquid, a long wait for the bottle to carb wasn't necessary.

Thought #2:

It went from 1.056 to 1.020 in about 6 days. That equals about 6 gravity points a day, or 3 gravity points every 12 hours. My understanding, I've read somewhere, it's less than 1 gravity point that is necessary to carbonate a beer. Doing a quick calculation, a standard 5 oz of priming sugar in a 5 gallon batch of beer only bumps the gravity by 0.001.

strange....there were just 2....I get five. hmmf. I deleted everything but your recipe. Should be ok now

 

[RukusDM]

Rukus, your PM box must be full.

Ferm temp low 60's, no exact number. Campden was only added 24 hours prior because it was raw and for all I know this lady accidentally ground up one of the stray cats in the cider press. Bottle conditioned is 72, almost exactly, kitchen counter temp.

Thought #1:

I didn't use a pressure gauge. I went by bubbles and foam in the glass when poured. 12 hours, "carbonated". It occurred to me just now, there is already alot of CO2 dissolved in the cider from fermentation... I just degassed another batch by gently swirling the carboy and this occurred to me. Because there was so much CO2 already in the liquid, a long wait for the bottle to carb wasn't necessary.





Thought #2:

It went from 1.056 to 1.020 in about 6 days. That equals about 6 gravity points a day, or 3 gravity points every 12 hours. My understanding, I've read somewhere, it's less than 1 gravity point that is necessary to carbonate a beer. Doing a quick calculation, a standard 5 oz of priming sugar in a 5 gallon batch of beer only bumps the gravity by 0.001.

Fletch, I believe you have the answer. That is a great thought. Cider already carbed up prior to bottle. I never gave that a thought. Good one.

Think I should still continue, or do you think that was it? Of course I cant see what you did just now, but it sure makes sense.

Edit: Also very good idea on thought #2 as well

 

[RukusDM]

Rukus, your PM box must be full.

Ferm temp low 60's, no exact number. Campden was only added 24 hours prior because it was raw and for all I know this lady accidentally ground up one of the stray cats in the cider press. Bottle conditioned is 72, almost exactly, kitchen counter temp.

Thought #1:

I didn't use a pressure gauge. I went by bubbles and foam in the glass when poured. 12 hours, "carbonated". It occurred to me just now, there is already alot of CO2 dissolved in the cider from fermentation... I just degassed another batch by gently swirling the carboy and this occurred to me. Because there was so much CO2 already in the liquid, a long wait for the bottle to carb wasn't necessary.



Thought #2:

It went from 1.056 to 1.020 in about 6 days. That equals about 6 gravity points a day, or 3 gravity points every 12 hours. My understanding, I've read somewhere, it's less than 1 gravity point that is necessary to carbonate a beer. Doing a quick calculation, a standard 5 oz of priming sugar in a 5 gallon batch of beer only bumps the gravity by 0.001.

Regarding Thought #1....Both Pimento, and myself saw a 5 Psi increase within a few hours of filling our Pressure Test bottles. I think this gives your idea allot of merit. The yeast certainly couldn't have done that as they were slightly dormant at the time of bottling. The only other explenation would be degassing of the cider filling the head space. Nice

Do you agree with this postulation?

 

[Fletch78]

Of course.

When I did mine, I did cold crash it for a day or two. However, the dissolved CO2 would still be dissolved in that short amount of time, actually more, because cold liquid takes up more gas than warmer liquid. It was then I bottled and left on the kitchen counter for 12 hours before I opened one... and voila! carbonation.

If you carry out this test, make sure to take notes on more than just atmospheres of carbonation and PSI. It makes sense to me that one could have visible carbonation relatively quickly, although the pressure wouldn't be all that high. Secondly... if you drink it as fast as I did, you wouldn't notice it going flat.

 

[selfdestructed]

Mine carbed in less than 12 hours.

I didn't take a gravity reading, I just let it ferment until it tasted to dry.

Once it was as dry as I could take it, I racked it.

I then back sweetened it with 2 cups of splenda and primed it with a half gallon more cider, but with preservatives.

In 12 hours, I had a LOT of carbination, as in too much.

I reracked the bottles, resteralized, rebottled, and in 10 more hours, I tested again.

Perfrct, bottle pasterized at 160, once the water got down to 120, I took bottles out, got the water back up to 160, put them back until it got back to 120, then let them cool over night.

Today....delicious cider.

 

[RukusDM]

Of course.

When I did mine, I did cold crash it for a day or two. However, the dissolved CO2 would still be dissolved in that short amount of time, actually more, because cold liquid takes up more gas than warmer liquid. It was then I bottled and left on the kitchen counter for 12 hours before I opened one... and voila! carbonation.

If you carry out this test, make sure to take notes on more than just atmospheres of carbonation and PSI. It makes sense to me that one could have visible carbonation relatively quickly, although the pressure wouldn't be all that high. Secondly... if you drink it as fast as I did, you wouldn't notice it going flat.

It might then make sense to degas the liquid by a vigorous stirring when adding the priming sugar then. This would hopefully reset everything to 0 Volumes of gas in the liquid and then only relying on what the yeast produce?

 

[Fletch78]

It would also oxydize the cider... potentially. And the temp would determine how much CO2 it would let loose. The variables are piling up. But yes, vigorous disturbance would get very much of it out of solution. At some point you'll hit an equilibrium, are you stirring out CO2 or stirring in air?

 

[RukusDM]

Mine carbed in less than 12 hours.

I didn't take a gravity reading, I just let it ferment until it tasted to dry.

Once it was as dry as I could take it, I racked it.

I then back sweetened it with 2 cups of splenda and primed it with a half gallon more cider, but with preservatives.

In 12 hours, I had a LOT of carbination, as in too much.

I reracked the bottles, resteralized, rebottled, and in 10 more hours, I tested again.

Perfrct, bottle pasterized at 160, once the water got down to 120, I took bottles out, got the water back up to 160, put them back until it got back to 120, then let them cool over night.

Today....delicious cider.

Well it is possible it is due to what Fletch suggests. Already dissolved Co2 prior to bottling. Having a bottle carb up in 12 hours would seem to require a full on ferment.

There is a difference between fully carbed and fully pressurized though. Early on in a beer bottle conditioning, you can get gushers when opening a test bottle at room temperature. The actual beer can have very little desolved co2 in it even though producing a gusher would make you think its over carbed. Co2 will desolve better in a cold liquid than in a warm one.

We condition at room temperature to allow the yeast to stay awake at their normal fermenting temperature. They produce CO2 for us to create bottle pressure. When we then put the bottles in the refrigerator, the co2 will then be dissolved in the liquid. You will also note that if you have a well carbed bottle and place into the refrigerator, it will take about over 24 hours to get the co2 in the liquid. In fact many suggest to leave bottles to condition cold after carbed and pasteurized to fully co2 condition. If you just chill it down, and you open one, you'll still run the risk of a gusher as the CO2 is not dissolved fully yet.

Even if you have a gusher, letting it finish conditioning and then testing cold several weeks later will produce different results.

 

[RukusDM]

It would also oxydize the cider... potentially. And the temp would determine how much CO2 it would let loose. The variables are piling up. But yes, vigorous disturbance would get very much of it out of solution. At some point you'll hit an equilibrium, are you stirring out CO2 or stirring in air?

The variables are indeed more than one might expect, however back to the original idea would solve this. Pressure monitoring puts you in a position to visually see the rate of gas production.

Once the pressure has met your requirements, the process then continues with the normal pasteurization, albet with lower temperatures.

As I had mentioned, one can build their own safety margin by simply building one of these bottles. Pop bottles are basically free, and the gauge is about 8 or 9 bucks.

People are not going to stop pasteurizing. They want to make sweet carbonated cider. I don't blame them, I like it too

We just need to provide a method that reduces the risk below what is done today. With your, mine, Pimentos ideas and rough procedures, I think we can reduce the risk. I was hoping some of the other experienced cider makers would have posted to offer their advice or suggestions.

I think we are begining to see the complexitys, but still with safe achievable results.

 

[RukusDM]

It would also oxydize the cider... potentially. And the temp would determine how much CO2 it would let loose. The variables are piling up. But yes, vigorous disturbance would get very much of it out of solution. At some point you'll hit an equilibrium, are you stirring out CO2 or stirring in air?

I've read allot about concerns of oxidization. I don't have a ton of experience to draw on, however I don't see how one might oxidize their cider if we are driving out CO2 in a major way like fermentation does.

Some people ferment with only a towel over the top with no cover and no airlock.

I'm not suggesting its not a real concern, I'm just wondering how that would happen with a ton of co2 being released, and it is heavier than air.

So dam much to understand

 

[RukusDM]

Of course.

When I did mine, I did cold crash it for a day or two. However, the dissolved CO2 would still be dissolved in that short amount of time, actually more, because cold liquid takes up more gas than warmer liquid. It was then I bottled and left on the kitchen counter for 12 hours before I opened one... and voila! carbonation.

If you carry out this test, make sure to take notes on more than just atmospheres of carbonation and PSI. It makes sense to me that one could have visible carbonation relatively quickly, although the pressure wouldn't be all that high. Secondly... if you drink it as fast as I did, you wouldn't notice it going flat.

One other thought, you mentioned that you had cold crashed the cider. If it had the dissolved co2 already in it Cold, you then placed the bottle in room temperature and the gas began coming out of the liquid. If you opened one warm, you may think the carb is high when it really has been being released into the head space.

Kinda like putting a pop bottle in the back seat of your car on a hot day. A extreme example, but along the same lines.

This may not be correct, but would seem to fit what we have observed and recorded.

I have been monitoring my test bottle after the pasteurization. As I had mentioned that it took about 3 hours to come down from the 50psi or so estimated, down to 30 psi. It then took a total of 12 hours to return to my starting pressure of 22 psi. I have been monitoring it the last few days and the pressure has continued to drop. It is now down to 18psi, 4 psi lower than what I started with.

I think that is telling me that the co2 pressure that built up in the head space is dissolving into the liquid. Its not leaking it as far as i can tell by putting in a water batch to check for bubbles.

 

[pimento]

One other thought, you mentioned that you had cold crashed the cider. If it had the dissolved co2 already in it Cold, you then placed the bottle in room temperature and the gas began coming out of the liquid. If you opened one warm, you may think the carb is high when it really has been being released into the head space.

Kinda like putting a pop bottle in the back seat of your car on a hot day. A extreme example, but along the same lines.

This may not be correct, but would seem to fit what we have observed and recorded.

I have been monitoring my test bottle after the pasteurization. As I had mentioned that it took about 3 hours to come down from the 50psi or so estimated, down to 30 psi. It then took a total of 12 hours to return to my starting pressure of 22 psi. I have been monitoring it the last few days and the pressure has continued to drop. It is now down to 18psi, 4 psi lower than what I started with.

I think that is telling me that the co2 pressure that built up in the head space is dissolving into the liquid. Its not leaking it as far as i can tell by putting in a water batch to check for bubbles.

You're correct, when it's heated the co2 comes out of solution and crowds into the headspace causing the pressure to rise. As it cools it slowly returns to equilibrium dissolving into the liquid. The co2 in solution doesn't cause as much pressure as it does out of solution.

The co2 left over from fermentation before adding priming sugar will be a bit less than 1 volume at room temp, there's a small chart showing how much here : http://***********/stories/techniques/article/indices/21-carbonation/1276-priming-with-sugar.

I'd guess that some of that co2 is lost through agitation when mixing in the priming sugar, syphoning into your bottling bucket and then filling your bottles though. So you may end up with 3/4 to 1/2 of that amount.

That amount is compensated for by temperature in most bottle priming calculators.

 

[pimento]

I've read allot about concerns of oxidization. I don't have a ton of experience to draw on, however I don't see how one might oxidize their cider if we are driving out CO2 in a major way like fermentation does.

Some people ferment with only a towel over the top with no cover and no airlock.

I'm not suggesting its not a real concern, I'm just wondering how that would happen with a ton of co2 being released, and it is heavier than air.

So dam much to understand

A full degass is generally done for wines. As long as you don't go overboard, oxidation isn't a problem since as you said, the co2 coming out is heavier than air and will push any oxygen out of the bottle/bucket leaving a nice blanket of co2 over the wine.

You do have to be more careful after degassing though, since no more co2 will be produced.

 

[selfdestructed]

Well it is possible it is due to what Fletch suggests. Already dissolved Co2 prior to bottling. Having a bottle carb up in 12 hours would seem to require a full on ferment.

There is a difference between fully carbed and fully pressurized though. Early on in a beer bottle conditioning, you can get gushers when opening a test bottle at room temperature. The actual beer can have very little desolved co2 in it even though producing a gusher would make you think its over carbed. Co2 will desolve better in a cold liquid than in a warm one.

We condition at room temperature to allow the yeast to stay awake at their normal fermenting temperature. They produce CO2 for us to create bottle pressure. When we then put the bottles in the refrigerator, the co2 will then be dissolved in the liquid. You will also note that if you have a well carbed bottle and place into the refrigerator, it will take about over 24 hours to get the co2 in the liquid. In fact many suggest to leave bottles to condition cold after carbed and pasteurized to fully co2 condition. If you just chill it down, and you open one, you'll still run the risk of a gusher as the CO2 is not dissolved fully yet.

Even if you have a gusher, letting it finish conditioning and then testing cold several weeks later will produce different results.

Are you saying to just cold crash after a few days, ignore the gusher that first day, and that in a couple days the co2 should be in the liquid?

They aren't as carbonated as I would like. I wish they where like the gushers I had before, just with out the gush.

 

[RukusDM]

Are you saying to just cold crash after a few days, ignore the gusher that first day, and that in a couple days the co2 should be in the liquid?

They aren't as carbonated as I would like. I wish they where like the gushers I had before, just with out the gush.

Well, I'm not sure at this time. I still don't have my arms around the potential of different SG's and strains of yeast yet.

However, from my limited experience and testing, pressures can climb quite high when pasteurizing. The issue with just popping a top and observing carbonation initialy, isn't a good measure. Even though you have killed the yeast, the pressure still can be quite high after Pasteurization.

I mentioned a few posts up that once I has pasteurized, the pressure did not drop back to what I started with for 12 hours. I have continued to monitor pressure and it is now around 18 psi which is 4 psi lower than I started with. I think this indicates that Co2 is still being desolved. This is still at room temperature of aroun 65 degrees.

Co2 will continue to desolve into the liquid until it equilizes with the temperature and cant desolve any more for that temperature. That is why your carbing results will differ. When I put bottles in the fridge, I don't review the carbing for at least 24 to 48 hours to allow the co2 to continue to desolve into the cider.

Cold liquids will desolve more than room temperature. Lastnight I put my pressure bottle in the fridge to chill it down for a full day or so and measure what the Psi drops to when cold. I will recorde the pressure drop and chart that as well. I will wait till the pressure does not drop any more. That would be the point when the cider is as carbed as it is going to get for the current temperature. At that time, I will open it and pour. I will video the pour and pass it on if I can.

 

[pimento]

In thinking about it, I'm not sure the residual co2 from fermentation really impacts the experiment, since all we are looking for is a safe pressure to pasteurize at.

All the residual co2 does is help us get to that number quicker.

In fact, that initial burst of pressure we both saw, 5psi within a few hours is likely caused by the residual co2 redistributing itself.

In your fermentation vessel a layer of co2 builds up on top and reaches equilibrium with the co2 inside the cider. When we transfer it to the bottle, that layer is removed, so the co2 comes out of solution to fill that space and reach a new equilibrium depending on temp and pressure.

 

[RukusDM]

In thinking about it, I'm not sure the residual co2 from fermentation really impacts the experiment, since all we are looking for is a safe pressure to pasteurize at.

All the residual co2 does is help us get to that number quicker.

In fact, that initial burst of pressure we both saw, 5psi within a few hours is likely caused by the residual co2 redistributing itself.

In your fermentation vessel a layer of co2 builds up on top and reaches equilibrium with the co2 inside the cider. When we transfer it to the bottle, that layer is removed, so the co2 comes out of solution to fill that space and reach a new equilibrium depending on temp and pressure.

I agree the pressure is what we want in the end. The question though is if folks do not use a gauge (as I will every time now) people may think that a week or carbonation with subjective tests are sufficent. They may have one burst while carbonating, or Pasteurizing if the pressure is not known.

Then they may have a issue as Fletch suggests. From what I have gathered, that is his main concern.

In any event, I will not be carbing and pasteurizing without a gauge bottle. In fact, I'm going to make 2 or 3 more. I will also be using lower pasteurizing temperatures which we have shown to additionaly increase the safety of this.

I know you are going to continue to refine, as well as myself. You are closer to getting data for a second trial, I have to startup several ciders yet to get something to test.

 

[pimento]

Something just occurred to me while looking back at the first thread, when I filled my gauged bottle I squeezed it to get all the air out before capping, just like i do when using them to test for carbonation.

From your picture I can't tell if you did the same.

That might also have contributed to differences in carbonation pressure.

 

[RukusDM]

Something just occurred to me while looking back at the first thread, when I filled my gauged bottle I squeezed it to get all the air out before capping, just like i do when using them to test for carbonation.

From your picture I can't tell if you did the same.

That might also have contributed to differences in carbonation pressure.

I did not. That accounts for some level of offset between us.

 

[pimento]

Good, one variable down.

From now on I won't squeeze the air out and I'm going to mark my bottle so I always get the same headspace.

 

[RukusDM]

Well I checked the bottle and it didn't change much from this morning so I did a quick video of the pour. Please forgive the video quality, I did this with a camera and I'm not much of a video editor.

The pressure when I put it into the refrigerator was 22 Psi, and at the pour test it was 8.5 psi. about 24 hours later. Its possible more gas would have dissolved, but this was close enough for my test. No Gusher, that was good.

I had to stop the video to unscrew the cap then pour. Not heavily carbed, but close to what I was looking for. If I had been able to wait till I got the 25 to 27 Psi, It would have been a bit better. I may test with a 30psi that would be closer to 3 volumes of Co2.

Overall...not bad for my first carb and pasteurization.

The task will be to see if it is reproducible. I would have done this test with a glass bottle, but we drank all 3 Gallons in the past week....that recipe is simple and defiantly a keeper.

Click on image to start vid -



Edit: Another thing I just noticed watching this test was that the liquid level was lower than when I started the Carbonation. You can see that from one of my posts in the original post. I guess that means that the bottle volume expanded while heating for Pasteurization. Total volume of the bottle is now bigger....more head space so the carb level is lower than what would have been in a glass bottle.

 

[RukusDM]

I found a small stopper with a hole in that will fit into the mouth of a beer bottle from the Brewing Shop.

I was thinking of adapting the gauge stem to a short 1" long 1/8" NPT nipple and put the nipple into the stopper hole and try a pressure test. This would be easyier to make a test bottle as you wouldn't have to Tap and Drill the cap. Not everyone has access to Pipe taps.

The pounds force on the stopper wouldn't be to high as the circular area of the stopper is small. It might make sense to use a champagne cork cage when I test it.

I'll post if it looks like it will work.