I am getting all the stuff to build my panel together and had a thought/question. Why do I need a boil kettle temp probe??
Boil kettle temp probe
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That would be for telling you the temperature for hop stand additions etc. If you don't do that you don't need a thermometer in the BK.
For electric it may be used to control the power used in keeping the boil automatically at a rolling boil instead of a volcanic boil.
For electric it may be used to control the power used in keeping the boil automatically at a rolling boil instead of a volcanic boil.
singybrue
Well-Known Member
You don't really need one, but it can help prevent boilovers by allowing you to monitor the approach to boil, and measure temps while whirlpooling and cooling(immersion chiller).
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
PID's don't work without a temp signal. Tells the element when to turn on and off during the mash. For boiling it's basically unneeded though as you can manually set the power to the element to control boiling.
Why are you worried anyways? It's probably the cheapest part of the assembly, lol.
Why are you worried anyways? It's probably the cheapest part of the assembly, lol.
OP
OP
Not worried, just curious. I tend to overthink sometimes. I just found it odd to need to know the temp of a kettle that boils. It's either boiling or it isn't.
Thanks all for the replies and info.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
^^^^ This^^^
If your building a panel the PID wont work without a temp sensor hooked up.
He probably doesn't want to drill another hole in the pot
If your building a panel the PID wont work without a temp sensor hooked up.
He probably doesn't want to drill another hole in the pot
in the process (started today) of converting to electric. I trying to see the benefit of having any type of logic involved with the BK.. is it bad practice to simply plug the element in and let it rip? I mean I too am of the logic, the BK is either boiling or its not.
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
You don't want to do that for a number of reasons.
One of which is the element would be running at full power all the time. It will be way to strong of a boil. The PID allows you to lower the power to the element for a nice rolling boil...around 75% power.
THink of the pid/control panel as the knob on your stove. You turn it down to hold a simmer and adjust for a rolling boil....You don't always have the knob set to full blast while cooking....same thing applies to making beer.
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
Sometimes full power can scorch a High Gravity boil so you need some type of control to dial that down
SoCal-Doug
Well-Known Member
When I get to the BK, one of many things may be happening... i'm cleaning the HLT and MT. and/or i'm starting another batch. and/or I've cracked beer and planted myself in a lawn chair, and/or wondering where the hell I put my hops, starter and chiller.
It's really handy to set an alarm for about 200F and the set point at about 206F, let the PID do its thing while I do something else, then when the alarm goes off, i'll dial it down to 75% to 80% and adjust for a nice boil, and start paying attention again.
Spend the money now, seriously, you'll appreciate later.
It's really handy to set an alarm for about 200F and the set point at about 206F, let the PID do its thing while I do something else, then when the alarm goes off, i'll dial it down to 75% to 80% and adjust for a nice boil, and start paying attention again.
Spend the money now, seriously, you'll appreciate later.
And if you use the Auber DSPRxxx, it'll do that all by itself.
Thanks for the info. I was considering re-purposing inkbird temp controller but it sounds like a pid with more of an analog ability to manage the wattage is a better way to go.
applescrap
Be the ball!
I don't use it, much to the chagrin of others. I use a decent hand held. Sometimes it seems like it would be nice to set and forget, but not really. I am waiting for strike temp like a bad magician waiting in the wings. And boil not a worry, it happens in like 13 minutes. There is a thread with 200 dollar simple controllers and that is all i would need. To each their own I guess. Maybe someday I will put it in, one less hassle I guess. Just never got around to it.
In addition to the nicety of having your controller prevent boil overs, you can also use the bk probe to hold a hop stand temp. Say you want to hold 180F for a 30 minute hop stand. It's as easy as dialing in the temp.
LarMoeCur
Well-Known Member
It's also a nice to have when cooling the wort. Taking the lid off to stick a thermometer in the kettle every 10 minutes would get tiresome quickly. Just a quick glancing at the control panel and I know what gear I need to be in.
I put mine about 6" from the bottom on the back side of the kettle to keep the wire out of the way. I also made sure it wasn't directly next to the heating element. I sometimes do 5 gallon batches so right about 2.5 gallons.
I put mine about 6" from the bottom on the back side of the kettle to keep the wire out of the way. I also made sure it wasn't directly next to the heating element. I sometimes do 5 gallon batches so right about 2.5 gallons.
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SleepyCreekBrews
Well-Known Member
there's many ways to skin a cat.
Many E-systems you see on the forum here use a PID for controlling the BK heating element. In that case you definitely need a sensor in the BK.
My BK uses an manual control (0-20A) for the element and a simple dial-face thermometer in the vessel. (I didn't see the need to use another PID for my BK, but I do feel it's important to have some sort of method to monitor temp)
Many E-systems you see on the forum here use a PID for controlling the BK heating element. In that case you definitely need a sensor in the BK.
My BK uses an manual control (0-20A) for the element and a simple dial-face thermometer in the vessel. (I didn't see the need to use another PID for my BK, but I do feel it's important to have some sort of method to monitor temp)
I wish I had a temperature gauge/sensor somewhere in my boil kettle!
I used to have a PID on it, but when I redid my system I moved the PID to the HLT and use a simple PWM for the BK. It works great and that's not the issue.
The issue I"m having is for chilling, when I recirculate until 80 degrees, then send through the CFC for the final time to the fermentor. Every five minutes or so, I go over and check the temperature with a handheld Thermapen.
I wanted to put a Blichmann flow-through thermometer inline, but it's rated to only 140(?) degrees or so.
That's the only time I wish my BK had a temperature probe or gauge or something.
I used to have a PID on it, but when I redid my system I moved the PID to the HLT and use a simple PWM for the BK. It works great and that's not the issue.
The issue I"m having is for chilling, when I recirculate until 80 degrees, then send through the CFC for the final time to the fermentor. Every five minutes or so, I go over and check the temperature with a handheld Thermapen.
I wanted to put a Blichmann flow-through thermometer inline, but it's rated to only 140(?) degrees or so.
That's the only time I wish my BK had a temperature probe or gauge or something.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Yes it will, It wont watch for the boilover point though.. after going from one to the other I found the pid was really just as easy in reality since I watched the kettle from the point I held the button down for 3 seconds to go from auto to pwm on the mypin pid..
the ezboil regulates temps way better though.. especially for rims.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
something like this mounted in a Tee at your valve output works well... I use one on the outlet of my plate chiller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-Stainle...061237?hash=item25df889935:g:MjcAAOSw~4NZsVJg
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
Source? Proper watt density prevent scorching. Also, running at full throttle is much to vigorous and you boil off too much liquid. That's why you need to dial that down.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
some BIAB setups use the element to regulate the temp while recirculating.. There are many threads here with folks who even went to the ripple elements to try to avoid (older brew boss setups as well) this but still had scorching from time to time from low flow/ localized boiling... It doesnt effect everyone because of variations in implementing it and grainbills but I think thats why the lower watt density boil coils came into play on their setups..
Also if you turn the element off for a couple mins and turn it back on after some proteins drop out and settle on the element you can burn those proteins to the element.. happens here from time to time.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
when boiling liquid on the stove do you ever find yourself adjusting the heat to control the boil? 5500w is too much really for boiling 12-13 gallons of wort at 100% you want temp control whether its just a knob or whatever but depending on your workflow the temp readout and control can come in very handy.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
@augiedoggy thanks. Guess that makes sense. I was thinking BK application.
@augiedoggy
currently I use a 20 gallon blichmann as my BK and usually do 12 gallon batches in it. I have a 185,000 - 200,000 BTU burner I use which I typically set as high as possible before the flames are lapping over the side. I never adjust the flame, simply on or off, which is why I was wondering if a control of any type was needed on the BK
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Well I do know that too much heat and too strong of a boil will actually have negative or at the very least different effects on the beer as well as crazy high boil off and steam rates which are not ideal for most electric setups since its very often used indoors.(one of the benefits) You may be dealing with negative side effects you dont even realize IDK I have only brewed on propane a couple times myself with a smaller bayou burner but even that was too strong and had to be throttled back for my tastes..
This is also one reason beers that are made with gas/vs steam vs electric all come out slightly different as a result. I just had this discussion with a brewery owner that had both electric and gas systems and has issues making the same beers in each. The color and flavor is effected.
Think of steam as ultra super low watt density.
In the old days people though crazy boils were better but then tests revealed its just not true at all.
ZmannR2
Well-Known Member
Not a worry with ULWD for sure
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Its unlikely but you can do it.. do a search here on ULWD scorch... as mentioned people who have turned off the element and then back on minutes later without stirring first have scorched beers with them.. there are even photos.. its easiest to do on high gravity beers.
The reason you can run a flame at full blast is because there's a limit to how much heat a certain size pot can convey to the liquid. I've measured a few systems and the effective BTU is very low, like 12kBTU. It also doesn't go up much when you visibly make the flame larger. A 5500 watt element puts an effective 19kBTU into the kettle so it's noticeably more powerful than a burner. At 100% output, the boil is scary.
singybrue
Well-Known Member
Or rye beers. Rye loves to scorch!
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Good to know.
I knew that immersion elements were way more efficient than any type of direct flame but it didnt occur to me this way.
processhead
Well-Known Member
I suspect that many of the cases of reported wort scorching have their basis in this.
As long as the wort is boiling, all of the kettle solids like hops and hot break are in suspension.
When the boil stops the solids settle on and around the element. When the element heats up to resume the boil, the solids on the element concentrate the heat and scorch. Manually stirring the kettle gets the solids back in suspension and off of the element.
An element located too close to the bottom of the kettle elements or that is not ULWD could aggravate this situation.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Yes that's pretty much what I was trying to explain above.. it happens here enough where I've heard of it at least a half a dozen times.
