Blichmann Tower of Power - burner issue

[roper4092]

Hey all,

For those who are using the TOP, I have a question for you. I am having a lot of problems getting the burner to light automatically at a very low gas rate. Blichmann recommends setting your flame to achieve 1.5 degrees F per minute, but when have my TopTier burner set for that rate, when the electrode fires up, the burner does not light and it times out, shutting the gas off.

Now for the strange part. When I remove the kettle from the burner and test it at that gas rate, it ignites just fine. Each and every time. But when the kettle is on the burner, it does not light. Every single time. If I hold the kettle about an inch above the burner, it fires up. Seems that the bottom of the kettle is impeding the lighting process in some way. If I give even the slightest blow from my mouth towards the burner, it will catch when the kettle is on.

Sure I can just set the gas rate higher and it will work fine, but that will give me a heating rate faster than I would like. It should also be noted that I am not doing anything except for what Blichmann recommends. It should also be noted that I am using all Blichmann equipment, which the owner's manual states I meet all of the requirements for using the system as recommended.

As for what I have tried, I have tried the electrode in different locations and even ran tests on my other two TopTier burners, and all of them behave the same way. I also removed the gas nozzle and made sure there was no blockage. The burner behaves normally in all other respects.

I have questions into both Northern Brewer, where I bought it, as well as Blichmann, but wanted to see if anyone else has run into this issue?

 

[dcbc]

Do you have your shudder opened or closed on the burner? When I used to use a Banjo Burner with NG, I would need the shudder closed to light it and then would open it to get a blue flame.

I use a pair of TOPs with 20 tip jet burners. The ASCO valves choke down the gas line enough on my system that I can run them wide open with no issues. On my unrestricted boil kettle jet burner, wide open is extreme overkill. Two years of use like this and no scorched grain. Once I finally got a reliable gap setting on the jet nozzle, they light like clockwork.

 

[roper4092]

I've tried all different air damper settings. I really think it's just a case of trying to keep the flame too low to start with. The one gas outlet that the electrode sparks will ignite, but the gas flow is not enough to spread to the other outlets. With the faster flow rates that the 20G pots can support (1.5 G / min), i would think that one could have a higher flame and still have the desired heating rise just because the wort is in contact with the heated bottom of the pot for less time. I am using a 10G BoilerMaker, so the max recommended flow rate is only .75 G / min.

Sometimes I can actually get it to light the low flame automatically, but then it will decide not to light on subsequent attempts. Pretty frustrating.

 

[dcbc]

This may be one instance where my having a kettle with a sandwiched clad bottom is an advantage over the Blichmann kettle's single ply bottom (might let me get away with a bit more heat), but the only way to know with your setup is to give it a try with the burner turned up a bit more.

As far as flow rate goes, I usually run mine with the ball valve that regulates the flow about half way open. It's a pretty healthy flow rate, but I don't have a flow meter (just bought the controllers). I assume the restrictions on flow rate have more to do with the arrangement of the Blichmann false bottom than with how well temperature is controlled. In my case (perforated false bottom with about 3 gallons of liquid underneath), my temperatures settle in and hold within 0.5 degrees and I have no issues with scorching when I do step mashes or mash out. I also tend to have a pretty high liquor to grist ratio in my mash due to the space under the false bottom.

In the end, if you turn up the flow and the gas, I don't think you will have any issues as long as the Blichmann false bottom can handle the flow.

You might also consider a way to vent the burner, whether it is cutting up the wind screen to allow more airflow or welding in some sort of spacers. My windscreens (custom fabricated) have about a 3" wide opening in the front that allows a good deal of airflow around the burner. I had the Banjo type burners in a previous stand, but with the original burner stand the kettle was elevated enough about the windscreen for ventilation and I never had issues getting them to light albeit not with a spark ignitor.

Here is what my windscreen looks like. At your current gas setting, that is surely your issue.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Interesting. I haven't had any major problems with the ToP module, other than that too high a flame will shut it down.

I wouldn't worry too much about scorching with greater gas flow. I have stuck my recirculation twice, resulting in the burner continuously operating for minutes at a time until I figured out that there was a problem, and the brew was fine, if a little more malty (lesson: always have extra amylase around...)

I wish they had an option for the stuck recirc warning without having to buy the $500ish tower...

 

[roper4092]

Are you guys paying attention to the actual heating rate of the return wort? I ran another test today and it took only 4 minutes to go from 148 to 168 at the lowest flame I could set so that the electrode could fire up the burner consistently. That leaves me with a rate of 5 degrees / minute, far off the Blichmann recommended rate of 1.5 degrees per minute.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Are you guys paying attention to the actual heating rate of the return wort? I ran another test today and it took only 4 minutes to go from 148 to 168 at the lowest flame I could set so that the electrode could fire up the burner consistently. That leaves me with a rate of 5 degrees / minute, far off the Blichmann recommended rate of 1.5 degrees per minute.

It's the mash bed temperature that should change about 1.5 degrees per minute, not the recirculation temp. That will and should reach 168 degrees within a very short period of time.

I use the ToP to manage the ramp to mashout (it spreads out the heating instead of firing continuously until the recirculated wort reaches the target temp), and it takes about 10-15 minutes for the mash bed to get there and stabilize.

 

[roper4092]

It's the mash bed temperature that should change about 1.5 degrees per minute, not the recirculation temp. That will and should reach 168 degrees within a very short period of time.

I use the ToP to manage the ramp to mashout (it spreads out the heating instead of firing continuously until the recirculated wort reaches the target temp), and it takes about 10-15 minutes for the mash bed to get there and stabilize.

Are you sure about that? The Blichmann TOP instructions say to figure out your heating rate, which should be 1.5 degrees per minute by recirculating your wort and using your recirculated wort temp to calculate this rate, not the mash bed.

 

[ArcaneXor]

From the manual:

It is also expected that you will need to do a few experimental batches
to dial in your specific system and
become familiar with the operation and control of your
system. You will quickly learn the flame height that
results in a 1.5 F/min average ramp rate in your mash
bed. You will also discover what flow rates you can
achieve without sticking your mash. Note that rice
hulls can aid in increasing recirculation rates.

 

[roper4092]

From the manual:

It is also expected that you will need to do a few experimental batches
to dial in your specific system and
become familiar with the operation and control of your
system. You will quickly learn the flame height that
results in a 1.5 F/min average ramp rate in your mash
bed. You will also discover what flow rates you can
achieve without sticking your mash. Note that rice
hulls can aid in increasing recirculation rates.

But the manual also states this:

Specifically, you should be able to reduce your heat to achieve an average heating rate of 1.5 F/min or less. To do this, recirculate your wort at the above rates or faster (use a stop watch and known volume to measure flow rate). Then apply heat on your burner at the lowest stable level. If over a 20-30 min period the increase in wort temperature divided by the time is at or below 1.5 F/min you have met this requirement.


So it refers to the temperature of the wort here, not the mash bed. Conflicting statements in the same manual...

 

[ArcaneXor]

But the manual also states this:

Specifically, you should be able to reduce your heat to achieve an average heating rate of 1.5 F/min or less. To do this, recirculate your wort at the above rates or faster (use a stop watch and known volume to measure flow rate). Then apply heat on your burner at the lowest stable level. If over a 20-30 min period the increase in wort temperature divided by the time is at or below 1.5 F/min you have met this requirement.


So it refers to the temperature of the wort here, not the mash bed. Conflicting statements in the same manual...

Typical confused/confusing Blichmann... They refer to the temperature of the wort in the mash tun, which should be about the same as the temperature of the mash bed.

Do you have the comm link cable? It makes more intuitive sense when you can see the graph of the temperature readings. I don't have one of a ramp to mashout handy, but in the below picture you can see how rapidly the recirculation temperature changes initially (much quicker than 1.5F/min), but the temperature very quickly stabilizes. That's not because of low gas flow, but because the burner only fires for a few seconds at a time during each 30-sec cycle interval (and sometimes not at all).

 

[roper4092]

Thanks ArcaneXor for bringing all this to light. I have been pulling my hair out, running a gajillion tests, chewing through probably a half tank of propane running said tests, as well as peppering Northern Brewer and Blichmann with questions every day about this. I have sent an email asking for instruction clarification to both parties, so we'll see what they come back with.

And if it all comes down to misinformation in the instructions, I'll likely get very angry for about a minute, then perhaps laugh hysterically for 10 minutes (ramping up at a rate of 1.5 giggles per minute until it stabilizes into a solid crazy person laugh), then heave a sigh of relief and get to brewing without worrying.

I'll report back with what Blichmann says on this contradiction in the instructions.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I really hope that I am not wrong. FWIW, my beers using the ToP have been coming out great!

 

[roper4092]

If it turns out you are wrong and the wort recirc rate really is what they mean by the 1.5 degrees / minute, then there will be a lot more people who are going to have serious issues getting their burners to allow that while igniting consistently, as it is a pretty low flame on mine. The low flame itself is consistent once lit, but it's getting it to light automatically and with consistency that is the tricky part.

 

[dcbc]

Forgive my being dense, but Is the point of all of this to not overheat the wort or to avoid sticking the mash or both?

The way I'm thinking about it, you're not going to overheat your wort by much (at least not by more than the system allows for in its initial overshoot cycling). So if I'm at 138F and tell it to go to 150 F, the system will light the fire and will turn it off around 156F give or take. As the wort continues to circulate, the temperature (in the loop) will fall pretty quickly and the system will check in every 30 seconds with shorter and shorter heating periods until things stabilize within 0.5 degrees of my target temperature.

So as long as I'm not sticking my mash, what's the downside of this?

I understand you can use the comm cable to do timed ramps, which, if I understand correctly, will take things up more gradually than the stock settings, and which will probably result in less overshoot. Is that what the main concern is here? Overshoot?

To be honest, I just run it on stock with a healthy flow rate and enough flame to keep it lighting consistently and raising mash temps within my lifetime. The results are consistently great.

Not saying there isn't a better way to do it. Just trying to understand what you guys are going for (apart from doing things to the letter of the owner's manual), and, in that event, I'd like to understand what the point of that target in the owner's manual is, whichever of the conflicting points is correct.

Sorry for being long winded. Mine has been so rock solid at holding temps within spec out of the box and with my eyballing the flame and the flow rate that you have me wondering what I missed.

 

[roper4092]

Hey dcbc,

I cannot speak for ArcaneXor, but for me, I am probably one of the more anal people when it comes to brewing process you'll meet. I've had my eye on this TOP for a long time, and I read all I could find on it. So when it came time to set it up, I already knew what the specs were in terms of heating rate, and what to expect, and all that. Going by the owner's manual, I saw that to really get the most out of this system, which is of course what I am after, the heating rate should be 1.5 degrees per minute. This, according to Blichmann, would be a good place to start to get the least amount of overshoot in a reasonable amount of heating time.

My concern is not a stuck mash, but rather the heating rate. Now what I am discovering is that the heating rate is not necessarily the heating rate of the recirculated wort, but of the grain bed mass itself. Honestly, I was just looking to get the specs out of this system that Blichmann said was possible. I wasn't getting anywhere near what they were indicating I should be, so of course, that is going to set off alarms in my head.

As this is my first RIMS setup, I wanted ot make sure everything was 100% good, and I'm not there yet. At least until I get a solid confirmation from Blichmann about my particular setup's performance, which incidentally is using all Blichmann gear.

So, in a nutshell, I am very anal (did I mention a perfectionist?), and take system specs pretty seriously and am not a fly by the seat of your pants type, who just dives in and sees what happens. I bench-marked the system and was not happy with what I saw, based on what the owner's manual is leading me to believe I should see.

Hopefully my obsessive nature starts to wane as I get more batches under my belt with this thing, and I will see that all this worrying was for nothing.

I feel bad for my wife...

 

[roper4092]

Oh, and yes...my primary concern was overshoot of the recirculation, leading to overshoot of the mash bed. I also wanted to have some kind of understanding of the consistent heating rate so I could use the com cable to program in step mashes, which requires you to know what your heating rate is so you can designate rise times and consequentially soak times.

 

[dcbc]

Oh, and yes...my primary concern was overshoot of the recirculation, leading to overshoot of the mash bed. I also wanted to have some kind of understanding of the consistent heating rate so I could use the com cable to program in step mashes, which requires you to know what your heating rate is so you can designate rise times and consequentially soak times.

I understand. Good luck with everything and let us know what you hear from Blichmann on the subject.

I'm brewing tomorrow night. I may put a stopwatch on the rig and see what my heating rate is based on my eyeballed settings.

In any event, this statement from the manual gives me some comfort: "A slight overshoot of the recirculation temperature is normal and will not harm your enzymes. Enzymes are denatured over a period of time, not instantaneously. We have tuned this system to offer the best match of ramp steed and stability."

Based on my experience with it, overshooting the temperature of the mash bed is pretty hard to do. That temperature rise is chasing the temperature rise in the recirculated wort. The system is designed to overshoot the recirculation temps by a few degrees because the mash bed is going to drag the temperature down of that wort as it filters through until stabilizes. Once the short overshoot cycle is done, the system fires for very short periods of time until everything settles in. I have had my recirculation overshoot by several degress, but have never had my mash bed overshoot using this system.

For me, at this point after two years of using this system, I don't have any trouble hitting my numbers, which, in the end, is exactly what I want out of it.

Cheers, and, again, good luck!

 

[roper4092]

Just heard back from Blichmann. The part in the TOP owner's manual about measuring the recirculated wort to calculate the heat rate was a mistake. It should have been the rise in the mash bed, and not the wort. I've been told by them that they will make the correction in their literature.

I feel confident that with the flame I am able to get, and after hearing from other's experiences, I should have no trouble with this system.

Special thanks to ArcaneXor for helping me through this!

 

[dcbc]

Just heard back from Blichmann. The part in the TOP owner's manual about measuring the recirculated wort to calculate the heat rate was a mistake. It should have been the rise in the mash bed, and not the wort. I've been told by them that they will make the correction in their literature.

I feel confident that with the flame I am able to get, and after hearing from other's experiences, I should have no trouble with this system.

Special thanks to ArcaneXor for helping me through this!

Good to know. Again, even with the expected, as-designed overshoot, the mash bed has never gone over target for me in two years of brewing with it. Just get that flame turned up to where it lights consistently and adjust your flow rate to get that 1.5 F/min. average.

 

[roper4092]

Good to know dcbc. Thanks for the feedback. Definitely makes me feel much better.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I agree with dcbc. Depending on your setup, there may be about 1-2 pints of wort in the recirculation loop at any moment, and another .19 gallons of wort under the false bottom that may get heated above the target temperature (that's for a 15-gallon kettle). That number is a pretty small percentage compared to the total volume of the mash, and it's temperature is only elevated for 30 seconds at a time at the most - not enough to degrade the enzymes even with temperature overshoots on the order of five degrees.

For me, it's a compromise between having achieving quick ramp rates to save me time, and quick recirculation rates to minimize the temperature excursions under the false bottom, while at the same time avoiding sticking the recirculation. I have only brewed about 10 times on my ToP control module, so my experience is limited, and I am still figuring out the right balance.

 

[beerman1957]

Hey all,

For those who are using the TOP, I have a question for you. I am having a lot of problems getting the burner to light automatically at a very low gas rate. Blichmann recommends setting your flame to achieve 1.5 degrees F per minute, but when have my TopTier burner set for that rate, when the electrode fires up, the burner does not light and it times out, shutting the gas off.
---------------------------------------------------

It's not getting enough oxygen to the burner surface. Try raising the electrode a few MILLIMETERS, yes just a few hundred thousandths of an inch. Also, you can write an email to John Blichmann and he reads email every day. Also, try replacing the batteries in the starter solenoid.


I don't have the TOP but I do have an electronic starter I built.

 

[roper4092]

Thanks beerman. This was resolved earlier in the thread. It wasn't an equipment issue as much as a documentation clarity issue.

 

[beerman1957]

Thanks beerman. This was resolved earlier in the thread. It wasn't an equipment issue as much as a documentation clarity issue.

DUH! I just saw that. I am confused at times, it seems. Good luck with your awesome TOP!

 

[dcbc]

Okay, just some semi scientific testing. My eyeballs have had my flowrate at approximately 1.5 gallons per minute. I usually run the flame pretty wide open since my burner lines are choked down. But this evening, I ran it at about 1/4 open on the MLT.

During my ramp to mash out at these settings, I raised the mash (not the recirc) 11 degrees in 10 min. 20 seconds. That's about 1.15 degrees F per second. Now this may move if I went over a longer period of time, but I'm guessing that with my flame more wide open like I usually run it, my ramp would have been right on the money.

Just one anecdotal bit of information. Systems will vary.

 

[roper4092]

Great to know. Thanks for the update. Sounds like the flame can get pretty hot and still support the 1.5.

 

[HollisBT]

I hope the OP doesn't mind that I am thread jacking... But do you guys using the ToP not have any issues with scorching your wort/grain? This is my main concern with direct fire infusing my MLT.

 

[ArcaneXor]

I hope the OP doesn't mind that I am thread jacking... But do you guys using the ToP not have any issues with scorching your wort/grain? This is my main concern with direct fire infusing my MLT.

There is no concern during regular operation. If, however, the recirculation sticks and I don't notice it (which is only an issue if you don't have the tower module - and I do not), there is some concern.

Even then, the volume underneath a Blichmann false bottom is very small (I think it's about a fifth of a gallon in my 15 gal kettle). The grain won't scorch because it is not in contact with the bottom of the kettle. The worst thing that can happen to the wort is to start boiling underneath the false bottom. Even that is probably fairly harmless. It would take quite a while to ruin the whole mash by heating it past saccharification temperature.