Bleach for sanitation??
- Thread starter darrenw
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
drewmedic23
Well-Known Member
You could do that but you have to be 100% sure you rinse of all of the bleach solution or it will affect the taste and possibly kill the yeast. Plus when you rinse the bleach off you risk introducing contaminants. Spend the 8 dollars and save yourself the trouble
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
You won't find a good many of us using any chlorine based sanitizer for our gear. A large percentage of us use StarSan, or other 'no-rinse' sanitizers. Bleach/chlorine must be rinsed off completely before you use items sanitized with it. Otherwise you'll get a nasty off-flavor from the chlorine.
I've only seen one home brewer use bleach/chlorine to sanitize.
BTW, a container of StarSan might appear to be expensive. BUT, consider this. You use only one ounce of StarSan concentrate (what you buy) to make 5 gallons of sanitizer solution.
I've only seen one home brewer use bleach/chlorine to sanitize.
BTW, a container of StarSan might appear to be expensive. BUT, consider this. You use only one ounce of StarSan concentrate (what you buy) to make 5 gallons of sanitizer solution.
i use iodophor, and it works great. as far as bleach, it works very well, but should only be used in a pinch, like when you realize you're out of iodophor, and are in the middle of brewing or kegging, and can't stop
FirstStateBrewer
Well-Known Member
I used bleach for 20 years and never had any problems. I always rinsed everything out completely. However, I have since switched over to using StarSan and would recommend you use that, instead.
Southernmost11
Active Member
I used bleach for years. I later discovered StarSan and my beers' taste improved dramatically. Then I started brewing all grain - another dramatic improvement. Then I began strictly controlling fermentation temp - HUGE improvement. Get away from bleach its definitely worth it.
I also use iodophor because it isn't as toxic as starsan. I've got kids in the house.
ReverseApacheMaster
Well-Known Member
A small amount of bleach left in your equipment will make for really, really nasty beer.
Northcalais40
Well-Known Member
Beach to clean, iodine for sanitation. Both are incredibly cheap in the long run.
zeg
Well-Known Member
+1 to cleaning with bleach if you like. I sometimes do this for a soak if I want to really clean the fermenter, but then rinse very thoroughly. You can probably get away with this and no further sanitizing if you are careful and are using chlorinated city water for the rinse: as long as your taps are clean, there's unlikely to be any contamination.
However, I a few nickels worth of Star-San or similar no-rinse sanitizer can buy you a lot of peace of mind, so I always do a thorough application just before filling up the fermenter.
However, I a few nickels worth of Star-San or similar no-rinse sanitizer can buy you a lot of peace of mind, so I always do a thorough application just before filling up the fermenter.
I used to use bleach many years ago, more for bottles than anything. But I ruined a lot of clothes. It only takes a drop or two.
Sanitation and cleaning are areas you really don't want to cheap out on when it comes to the brewing process.
I used to use Iodophor but now use StarSan. I don't have an issue with Iodophor, I just liked that it doesn't stain my fingers (and my kitchen counter) like the Iodophor did.
I really wouldn't recommend bleach unless it was a dire last resort absolutely had to sanitize something right that moment... and even then only after I had called every local brewer I knew to find out if they had some sanitizer I could borrow.
I used to use Iodophor but now use StarSan. I don't have an issue with Iodophor, I just liked that it doesn't stain my fingers (and my kitchen counter) like the Iodophor did.
I really wouldn't recommend bleach unless it was a dire last resort absolutely had to sanitize something right that moment... and even then only after I had called every local brewer I knew to find out if they had some sanitizer I could borrow.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
From what I understand, Iodophor effectiveness is indicated by it's color. Not a good thing for me, since I'm color blind. 
PitchnGrin
Well-Known Member
I'm a frugal/cheap/old school guy so I used the bleach and vinegar dilution with success. It will damage clothes but I didn't care. It works but I've switched to cleaning with Oxyclean and sanitizing with Starsan. It's so convenient and worry free. I keep a couple gallon jugs of it at the recommended dilution and just recycle it. The price difference has been negligible on the 5gal/10gal scale.
Hoosier-Brewer
Well-Known Member
Recently I was bored at work on my lunch hour and checked out a couple of the Home Brewer TV episodes on my phone. Gary Martin was promoting the use of bleach for sanitizing and says to never rinse it. I thought I'd share that for what it's worth, there are many opinions on the interwebs. Personally I only use Star San. It's fairly inexpensive and it lasts a long time.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Maybe he enjoys the taste of band-aids... Or is trying to sabotage other brewers so that he gets more awards/medals in competitions.
Do you have marble countertops? Mine are formica ( I think, wood with a veneer) and spilled a couple drops of full strength StarSan on it.. now I am stuck with a couple white stains etched on a dark green counter. Have found nothing to remove it.
Hoosier-Brewer
Well-Known Member
Maybe he enjoys the taste of band-aids... Or is trying to sabotage other brewers so that he gets more awards/medals in competitions.
His production is great, but I can't say I agree with a lot of his methods, at least in the 2-3 episodes I watched.
Curtis2010
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,875
- Reaction score
- 640
I've used bleach for years and never had any issues because of it. I think the key to using bleach is not to mix it too strong. A ratio of 2oz chlorine bleach to 5 gallons of water makes an effective sanitizing solution and at that concentration rinsing is not an big issue. Just use plain unscented chlorine bleach of course.
Another big advantage of bleach is that it is available almost anywhere on the planet. Out here in the jungle I can't run down to my LHBS and get some more fancy sanitizer, but I can find bleach.
Another big advantage of bleach is that it is available almost anywhere on the planet. Out here in the jungle I can't run down to my LHBS and get some more fancy sanitizer, but I can find bleach.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
Those of us that are not living just beyond BFE can get StarSan easily. Either from a LHBS or online HBS.
Personally, I have problems with the smell of chlorine. There are plenty of times when I can barely tolerate the amount in the water coming from the faucet/shower.
Besides, I don't have anything that will measure just 2oz (to my knowledge). My measuring cups start at 4oz.
Curtis2010
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,875
- Reaction score
- 640
...
Besides, I don't have anything that will measure just 2oz (to my knowledge). My measuring cups start at 4oz.
Some shot glasses are measured in increments up to 2oz...just don't get confused!
zeg
Well-Known Member
And a "standard" shot glass is 1.5 oz, so you could just do one + 1/3 shots. Most of the large ones are 2.0 oz, so those would be right on.
Or you could play the logic puzzle using two measuring cups that have 2 oz increments starting at 4 oz. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine how to measure out exactly 2 oz using only those two containers.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
IMO, not worth the effort. Especially since StarSan comes with a measuring section in the container. Loosen that cap, squeeze the bottle, and watch it fill. Stop when it hits the correct level then pour out. Takes all of a few seconds. You also don't need to worry about something nasty toughing your skin (chlorine).
Household bleach plus water in itself is very bad at killing spores, mold and wild yeast. Bleach in wrong concentrations can really screw up a beer, even if you do rinse. BUT... and it's a big BUT... as was pointed out earlier in this thread, a household bleach plus water solution that is then acidified with white vinegar, at the right concetrations, will sanitize in minimal contact time.
According to this Basic Brewing podcast , the right concentration is 1 oz of bleach, for 5 gallons of water, provided you add 1oz of vinegar to the water afterward. I repeat, you add the vinegar to the water after adding the bleach. Never the other way around and never mix bleach and vinegar. If you mix vinegar and bleach together, you'll release chlorine gas which can be deadly. The guest on the podcast is none other that Charlie Telley, inventor of StarSan so you know it works.
Also, this will work provided you buy the cheapest bleach you can find in the smallest possible container. Store brand usually will not have as many caustic (sodium hydroxide) as the name brand, which means it goes bad faster, but that it also releases more hypochlorous acid, which is what actually does the killing. At that level, rinsing is not required (you're at 80 parts per million) and contact time needed ? 30 seconds. With high pH (no vinegar), high contact time doesn't matter, it won't kill anything.
Does it all really matter ? Not really. StarSan and Iodophor are easier, and arguably, safer to use. But to say that bleach will ruin beer is simply not true, provided you know what you're doing and you're doing it correctly. Personally, I use the acidified bleach solution. It works for me. I also bake my bottles. It works for me too.
According to this Basic Brewing podcast , the right concentration is 1 oz of bleach, for 5 gallons of water, provided you add 1oz of vinegar to the water afterward. I repeat, you add the vinegar to the water after adding the bleach. Never the other way around and never mix bleach and vinegar. If you mix vinegar and bleach together, you'll release chlorine gas which can be deadly. The guest on the podcast is none other that Charlie Telley, inventor of StarSan so you know it works.
Also, this will work provided you buy the cheapest bleach you can find in the smallest possible container. Store brand usually will not have as many caustic (sodium hydroxide) as the name brand, which means it goes bad faster, but that it also releases more hypochlorous acid, which is what actually does the killing. At that level, rinsing is not required (you're at 80 parts per million) and contact time needed ? 30 seconds. With high pH (no vinegar), high contact time doesn't matter, it won't kill anything.
Does it all really matter ? Not really. StarSan and Iodophor are easier, and arguably, safer to use. But to say that bleach will ruin beer is simply not true, provided you know what you're doing and you're doing it correctly. Personally, I use the acidified bleach solution. It works for me. I also bake my bottles. It works for me too.
zeg
Well-Known Member
Typo? 1 oz = 29.6 mL.
Also, a tablespoon is exactly 1/2 oz, so 2 tablespoons is spot on.
When I've used bleach, I've never bothered measuring. I just pour in an eyeballed amount. I've used this for cleaning bottles a few times and I've never had any ill effects at all after rinsing (and re-sanitizing with SaniClean). Certainly no off flavors.
jfr111 said:
If it has any effect on the beer after rinsing, you didn't rinse well enough (unless you mean by not sanitizing adequately if you rely on it solely for that).
Ooops. Typo. A tablespoon is 29,6ml. Listen to the podcast. Household bleach is engineered to whiten our laundry, not kill mold and wild yeast. When people "bleach bomb" their equipment by simply pouring in bleach and adding water afterward, they have the sentiment that they are killing everything because it smells nasty and everything turns white. Wrong. What you're doing is basically adding an unecessary step to your process and wasting a lot of water rinsing. It's not hurting anything, but it sure isn't accomplishing a whole lot either.
Clean using a mild detergent (oxyclean for example) and mild scrubbing and then sanitize. Even just scrubbing in hot water is often enough unless you let your equipment cake and get nasty after usage. Bleach is not a detergent and it is a poor sanitizer, unless its pH is lowered. StarSan is supposedly one step (detergent + sanitizer), at least according to Charlie Telley in the podcast.
Thre only time I have picked up an infection is when I started "cleaning" my vinyl tubes by letting them soak in a strong unacidified bleach solution. Sure enough, some organic matter had stayed in the tube and created a hospitable habitat for wild yeast.
Our kitchen is a relic. Cheap laminate of some kind. If we were planning on living here more than a couple more years we would be looking in to gutting the kitchen.
So whatever my countertops are the Star San has never stained. However some concentrated Star San get on a pocket knife of mine and the blade has some funky discoloration now.
A US ounce is 29.6 ml, 28.4 Imperial.
I wonder about the bleach vinegar solution. I think the idea is that the bleach will raise the pH and the vinegar will lower it back. The thing that bumps me is that there is no way thats going to work in tap water. Charlie must have been using DI water. Otherwise the resultant pH would be over a very wide range, depending on the water.
I dont think its worth it to screw around with something that can wreck your beer in tiny amounts.
I wonder about the bleach vinegar solution. I think the idea is that the bleach will raise the pH and the vinegar will lower it back. The thing that bumps me is that there is no way thats going to work in tap water. Charlie must have been using DI water. Otherwise the resultant pH would be over a very wide range, depending on the water.
I dont think its worth it to screw around with something that can wreck your beer in tiny amounts.
TequilaMockingbird
Active Member
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2012
- Messages
- 43
- Reaction score
- 3
In the UK I can recommend Chemipro-Oxi. Quick, eay and no need to rinse (although I invariably do).
Nowhere in the podcast does he mentions using DI water. You might be onto something regarding the pH of tap water, but StarSan also works by lowering the pH of the water/sanitizer solution below a certain level (3 in this case) and I'm sure nobody uses StarSan with DI water. I'd wager that the vast majority of tap water doesn't contain enough buffering capabilities to really hinder the capacity of the vinegar to acidify the solution. Charlie Telley was thorough enough (he talks for about 15 minutes about using bleach) that if he wanted people to use DI water, he would've mentionned it.
No rinse sanitizers are not supposed to be rinsed after usage. I very much doubt the tap water coming from your kitchen sink is sterile. No rinse means no rinse. You can (and invariably do) introduce back micro organisms on your equipment by doing so. Even using boiled and cooled water is spiffy at best. On the other hand, not all wild yeast or mold can survive the rigors of living in beer and only a fraction of what "floats" or "squirms" around can spoil beer, so if it works...
Jfr1111 I listened to the podcast too, but its been a while. I came up with the DI theory, because its the only way I could figure out that a smart guy like Charlie would say something dumb. I think he used DI because thats what he had, and it never occurred to him that other people would use a whole range of different waters.
He did say when your StarSan solution gets cloudy, throw it out. It gets cloudy when the detergent reacts with the impurities in the water. I take that to mean it would be a real good idea to mix it up with soft water. It doesnt need to be DI, it could be distilled or RO. I do that, lots of people do.
Just for fun, I ran an informal experiment. I put a teaspoon of vinegar in a half cup of tapwater, pH 3.75. With RO water, it was 3.05. Big difference.
He did say when your StarSan solution gets cloudy, throw it out. It gets cloudy when the detergent reacts with the impurities in the water. I take that to mean it would be a real good idea to mix it up with soft water. It doesnt need to be DI, it could be distilled or RO. I do that, lots of people do.
Just for fun, I ran an informal experiment. I put a teaspoon of vinegar in a half cup of tapwater, pH 3.75. With RO water, it was 3.05. Big difference.
I think you're overthinking this by a good margin. He did say that all the major breweries use chlorine at 5 part per million at a pH around 3.5 on their bottling lines, if I remember right. At 80 part per million, which is the concentration achieved with the method outlined above, it's safe to speculate that there's a lot of leeway for tap water's diverging pH. He did say it was very important to choose the cheapest bleach possible to guard against caustic not allowing the pH to drop enough and to check the bleach for cloudyness/freshness every so often,so, in my mind, these are the two determining factors in insuring optimal performance.
And again, StarSan needs an even lower pH to be effective: if it doesn't go below 3, it must be discarded. But what if someone has a ridiculously high tap water pH ? Nowhere on the bottle is it written to use with RO or DI water. It doesn't say to increase usage. It just says 1oz for 5 gallons.
StarSan is superior in every way, that I can give you, but bleach can work in a pinch too. A lot of other practices carry minimal infection risks but are still touted as okay.
I did find this: http://chemistry.about.com/b/2012/02/01/why-people-mix-bleach-and-vinegar.htm
Apparently Charlie was increasing the oxidation potential without increasing the bleach. He was using sodium hypochlorite at 82 ppm, acetic acid 47 ppm. So I thought I would try my experiment again at the lower level of vinegar. I used three drops into 500ml instead of a teaspoon. Tapwater 7.05, RO 4.40.
Thats what a buffer does.
The reason StarSan works in hard water is that theres enough phosphoric acid in there to bust out of the buffer. Last time I checked my diluted StarSan was pH 1.65.
I wish we could ask Charlie, but the last email I sent to Five Star was not answered.
Apparently Charlie was increasing the oxidation potential without increasing the bleach. He was using sodium hypochlorite at 82 ppm, acetic acid 47 ppm. So I thought I would try my experiment again at the lower level of vinegar. I used three drops into 500ml instead of a teaspoon. Tapwater 7.05, RO 4.40.
Thats what a buffer does.
The reason StarSan works in hard water is that theres enough phosphoric acid in there to bust out of the buffer. Last time I checked my diluted StarSan was pH 1.65.
I wish we could ask Charlie, but the last email I sent to Five Star was not answered.
zeg
Well-Known Member
I'm extremely skeptical of this claim. (Though I didn't listen to the podcast, sorry, audio formats annoy me.) The CDC recommends the use of diluted bleach for disinfection of surfaces (http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/disinfection_sterilization/6_0disinfection.html). It's recommended for cleanup of mold and mildew by the Colorado State Extension (e.g., http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/columncc/cc0802.html). The evidence I can find quite uniformly indicates that bleach is an effective, broad-spectrum disinfectant (and on par with or broader spectrum than acid-based disinfectants).
I guess it's possible that in this specific venue there's a problem with it, and maybe your podcast covers this. But I don't think you can justify the claim that you're doing "nothing."
