Bland hop forward beers

[peted]

I have been brewing for a few years now and I would say my beer has hit a pretty good standard. I gets lots of compliments from friends, and the beer is very drinkable. The problem is, I find it quite bland. I would like hop forward beers, something along the lines of IPAs and American Pales. My current batch on tap is a Beaver Town Gamma Ray clone (Gamma Ray Clone – American Pale | The Malt Miller) And it is nice, but I would say not hoppy at all, What am I doing wrong, or what should I try to get better hop utilisation?

I am brewing with a grain father G30 and fermenting in a fermzilla under about 10 PSI of pressure. The fermenter is temperature controlled so never more than .5 degrees c from target.

The water is RO using a 3 stage RO unit Compact 3-Stage Reverse Osmosis 50-Gallons-Per-Day (185 Litres) Fish & Aquarium Water Filter System (i do have the 4th stage with DI-Resin, but read mixed reviews so recently stopped using it)

For the Gamma ray clone, I added the following water additives at mash:

• Calcium Chloride: 4g
• Epsom: 5g
• Gypsum: 5g

The mash had a PH of 5.2

It was dry hoped for 4 days prior to kegging at about 20 degrees, then cold crushed in its serving keg (it’s the only way I can cold crush) , the keg has a float instead of a dip tub, so serving from the top not the bottom of the keg.

I also have a hop missile (hop rocket clone) and used this instead of whirlpooling in previous brews and used it as an inline hop infuser once with 100G of Columbus leaf hops, and neither really add any hop flavours.

Any suggestion of what I am doing wrong or can try to bring out more (or any) hop aromas?

Thanks

Pete

 

[madscientist451]

It kooks like you are using a brewing ingredient kit? If so, they are buying the hops in bulk and re-packaging them?
Who knows how the hops were/handled stored? Keep your hops in the freezer and as sealed up as you can.
If your beer is lacking aroma and you are using a large amount of hops, it could be because the hops aren't fresh.
Here's the hop schedule from the above brew:

THE BOIL
Boil time (mins): 60

Additions and timing:

7 g (39 IBU) — Columbus 15.8% — Boil — 60 min
8 g (1 IBU) — Amarillo 8.4% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 80 °C
8 g (2 IBU) — Bravo 13.2% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 80 °C
8 g (2 IBU) — Mosaic 11.8% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 80 °C
8 g (2 IBU) — Columbus 15.8% — Aroma — 10 min hopstand @ 80 °C

Secondary additions and timing:

52 g — Citra 13.5% — Dry Hop
42 g — Amarillo 8.4% — Dry Hop
16 g — Calypso 6.2% — Dry Hop

Here's the brewer's description of the beer:
The concept was to create a juicy tropical beer. A brew you can sit on and drink all day, rammed with juicy malts and huge tropical aromas of mango and grapefruit. Massive additions of whole leaf American hops are added in ever increasing numbers at the end of the boil giving huge hop flavour. The beer is then dry hopped for days, driving the punchy aromas so you can smell it from miles away!

So how does your beer compare with the commercial version?

The above beer has a lot of hops in it, but its not a standard IPA, it looks like a NEIPA, which is more about hop flavors than hop bitterness.
Also, if you want to be frugal, that charge of Citra, Amarillo and Calypso dry hops can be saved and used in the boil of a simple pale ale.

If you really want to get into NEIPA's check out this podcast on Basic Brewing Radio, where the brewer did many re-brews to get where he wanted:
https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/6/5/46...26605864&hwt=5103c2700392b04befedaaeb95c207d9

 

[peted]

Thanks for the response, " So how does your beer compare with the commercial version? " It tastes like a bland version of the real thing.

I am not sure if it is due to hop freshness, as the hop blandness is a common character on all my beers and I have used 3 big UK suppliers to rule out a supplier issue, and all have the same results. So it could be hop freshness, but it means all 3 suppliers are selling less than fresh hops.

I am un able to keep the hops in a freezer, so they live is vacuum sealed bags in the fridge. They don't really sit around for long, they are typically used pretty quickly.

Even when I tried using a inline hop infuser, I did a side by side test with beer straight from the keg, and there was no real notable difference. I am clutching at straws here, but could it be the water, and it is not taking on the hop flavours? Is there any thing I can do to the water to make is more suited for hop forward beers

I will check out the podcast, Thanks.

 

[marc1]

How are you limiting cold side O2? I see you're fermenting under pressure, how are you purging after dry hop additions? And purging the keg? Transferring?

 

[peted]

I have been very aware of o2, so I go to extremes.

The fermizilla has a collection tub on the bottom that can be used for dry hopping. So I ferment with out the tub attached and on hopping day, I added the hops to the empty tub, attached it, use a vacuum pump to remove the air, then fill with c02 and purge, then open the butterfly valve to mix the hops to the brew.

I transfer out the fermenter into a purged keg under pressure and then cold crush in the keg, with the co2 attached.

Thanks.

 

[marc1]

I have been very aware of o2, so I go to extremes.

The fermizilla has a collection tub on the bottom that can be used for dry hopping. So I ferment with out the tub attached and on hopping day, I added the hops to the empty tub, attached it, use a vacuum pump to remove the air, then fill with c02 and purge, then open the butterfly valve to mix the hops to the brew.

I transfer out the fermenter into a purged keg under pressure and then cold crush in the keg, with the co2 attached.

Thanks.

If you are doing a closed transfer and the keg is properly purged, then O2 is probably not the problem.

What does your water calculator say is the ppm of the various ions? RO plus salts is a great strategy. I don't use epsom, but I don't think that would cause hop blandness.

You've got roughly 1oz in 5 gallons whirlpool and 3oz dry hop. It should have some decent hop aroma, but NEIPA levels are much higher. That recipe is for a pale ale, which I would not expect to be exploding with hoppiness.

You could try soft crashing before dry hopping, basically drop the temp to 50 or 55F for a couple days, then dry hop, then cold crash.

 

[Stand]

I would double the dry hops. I try to use 1oz/Gallon or about 140-150g in 20L in the dry hop.

 

[gello22]

I had a few years off between 3 small children and working way to much when I tried brewing again I almost quite because I could only make blonde ales. Then I found a clone recipe of Todd the axe man and realized how far off my old recipes where from my new taste buds.

Right now I have 5 commercial beers in the fridge for "research" 3floydes barbarian haze, New Belgium Vodoo Ranger: IPA, american haze, 1985 ipa, experimental ipa.

Compared to what I have been brewing to my own taste I would classify them as easy drinking pale ales.

My last four ipa/hazy have been in the 6-7.5% abv range and I would classify as hop forward juice. I have been using 200-250g in the whirlpool and 200-250g dry hop for 3-4days including 2 day cold crash. For a total around 450g in 21liters. 80c whirlpool for 20min, dry hopped magnetically with the hops split between 2 muslin bags. Fermented under pressure, Fill keg with starsan and drop a 1/4 tablet campden then push out the starsan to purge, followed by closed transfer. This stays a strong juice for the 6ish weeks it takes me to drink it.

I think If I dropped my hop bill to 300-350g I would end up closer the the 3 floyds barbarian. The recipe you brewed has only 142g between wp and dryhop.

 

[peted]

"What does your water calculator say is the ppm of the various ions?"

I'm not fully sure what my water levels are to start with, i use the standard template for RO water from brewfather.app and use its calculator.

The result for this brew was:

 

[peted]

I had a few years off between 3 small children and working way to much when I tried brewing again I almost quite because I could only make blonde ales. Then I found a clone recipe of Todd the axe man and realized how far off my old recipes where from my new taste buds.

Right now I have 5 commercial beers in the fridge for "research" 3floydes barbarian haze, New Belgium Vodoo Ranger: IPA, american haze, 1985 ipa, experimental ipa.

Compared to what I have been brewing to my own taste I would classify them as easy drinking pale ales.

My last four ipa/hazy have been in the 6-7.5% abv range and I would classify as hop forward juice. I have been using 200-250g in the whirlpool and 200-250g dry hop for 3-4days including 2 day cold crash. For a total around 450g in 21liters. 80c whirlpool for 20min, dry hopped magnetically with the hops split between 2 muslin bags. Fermented under pressure, Fill keg with starsan and drop a 1/4 tablet campden then push out the starsan to purge, followed by closed transfer. This stays a strong juice for the 6ish weeks it takes me to drink it.

I think If I dropped my hop bill to 300-350g I would end up closer the the 3 floyds barbarian. The recipe you brewed has only 142g between wp and dryhop.

I hear what alot of people are saying, use more hops! I will try this. I have a brew fermenting now, and dry hop is not for a week, so still have time. Hop Burst Session Ale | The Malt Miller

I have a spare 100g of Vic secret in the fridge, so will use this as an addition to what the recipe says.

Also, what is the Camden tablet used for in the keg?

 

[gello22]

I read this somewhere as a trick for dealing with O2 you pick up or didn't purge. In general it is good to have some ability to mitigate oxygen if for no other reason than the C02 gas we use can contain up to .5% oxygen. Based on how long it takes for my tablets to dissolve in room temp water the campden tablet (not crushed) should partially survive the purging of the starsan.

No triangle tests, but since I started doing this I don't notice any deterioration in hop flavor over time. 6-8weeks depending on how many beers I have on tap. I did notice the fade before.

 

[peted]

Thanks, I will read up on this, as I have read star San foam contains O2, I have started using a low foaming acid rinse like saniclean for anything after fermentation.

 

[couchsending]

Use more hops:

A standard lower ABV “IPA” recipe for me in the Grainfather would be roughly 6-7oz of hops on the hotside and 6-7.5oz in the dry hop for 6 gallons into the fermenter.

Generally 1oz @ 30, 1oz @5-10, 4oz in WP.