Bitter - just bitter

[Redlantern]

Hi all - about two weeks ago, I ran a rye IPA.

Just started the dry hop and will cold crash next week.

Problem is, there is a sharp bitterness that should not be there. I can pick out the malt profile and it is wonderful. Hop flavor is weak, but I feel I have decoded that problem. The bitterness is really distracting from what would be an otherwise tasty brew.

Used MO and rye for about 93% of the grain bill with the rest crystal and a tiny bit of carafa II for color. Mashed low (148.3°F) and sparge at 168°F. Added 6g of gypsum and about 4g of Epsom salts. Boil for 60 min.

What would cause this. Earlier, I suspected fusel alcohol (aggressive fermentation jacked up fermenter temps to low 70's despite ambient being <65°F), but I feel that is not the case now.

The taste is not astringent, just pure bitter. What could case that?

 

[Yooper]

Hi all - about two weeks ago, I ran a rye IPA.

Just started the dry hop and will cold crash next week.

Problem is, there is a sharp bitterness that should not be there. I can pick out the malt profile and it is wonderful. Hop flavor is weak, but I feel I have decoded that problem. The bitterness is really distracting from what would be an otherwise tasty brew.

Used MO and rye for about 93% of the grain bill with the rest crystal and a tiny bit of carafa II for color. Mashed low (148.3°F) and sparge at 168°F. Added 6g of gypsum and about 4g of Epsom salts. Boil for 60 min.

What would cause this. Earlier, I suspected fusel alcohol (aggressive fermentation jacked up fermenter temps to low 70's despite ambient being <65°F), but I feel that is not the case now.

The taste is not astringent, just pure bitter. What could case that?

the sulfate from the gypsum and epsom salt is probably responsible, but it really depends on how much total there was in the water. Mashing low also creates more attenuation, increasing the perception of being very dry. What was the FG?

How much rye did you use? Rye is "spicy" and dry, and that could also be a part of it. I like 18-22% rye in my rye IPA but I don't go sulfate heavy with that one.

I think the combination of a low mash temp, maybe heavy sulfate use (depending on how much you actually ended up with in the water), and the rye all contribute to a dry bitter finish.

 

[frazier]

We need to hear more about your recipe and process - as in, how much of what hop was boiled for how long.

Also, the gypsum accentuates the hops, what was it about your water that made you want to add it? (Not saying it was wrong - just asking).

Cheers,

 

[fuelish]

Are you using unfiltered tapwater?

 

[Redlantern]

Yooper - based on water report, sulfates were low. I do not have the water report with me, but the EZwater calculator was used to bring the sulfates to about 300ppm.

Grain bill is as follows
8.0 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM)
11 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)
2 lbs 8.0 oz Rye Malt (4.7 SRM)
8.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM)
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)
2.0 oz Carafa II (Weyermann) (415.0 SRM)

OG came in at 1.062 and FG is 1.010.

Color is good. Beer is very clear (whirlfloc tablet used, but no other finings)

 

[Redlantern]

We need to hear more about your recipe and process - as in, how much of what hop was boiled for how long.

Also, the gypsum accentuates the hops, what was it about your water that made you want to add it? (Not saying it was wrong - just asking).

Cheers,

To your point:
1.0 oz Magnum [12.0%] - Boil 60 min
0.50 Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10 min)
2.0 oz Cascade [5.5%] 1 min
2.0 oz Amarillo [9.2%] - Steep 15 min
1.0 oz Citra [12.0%] - Steep 15 min

 

[Yooper]

Well, 300 ppm of sulfate will definitely do that! Sulfate enhances the perception of bitterness.

That, combined with very little crystal malt for sweetness, should really bring out the bitterness. That is way above my preference for sulfate in most beers, but especially a beer without much crystal malt for sweetness.

If you used a "harsh" hop variety for bitterness, that would make the bitterness even stronger, but 300 ppm of sulfate will definitely do it.

 

[Redlantern]

Gotcha. Used that level for two other IPA's and it was wonderful, but those were medium body and more crystal, so the bitterness may have been balanced.

I have to run this one again because the malt flavor was wonderful - so good it makes me mad the rest was off. Next time will cut sulfates in half.

BTW - gypsum was divided evenly between mash and sparge. - so 3g in each

 

[Yooper]

Gotcha. Used that level for two other IPA's and it was wonderful, but those were medium body and more crystal, so the bitterness may have been balanced.

I have to run this one again because the malt flavor was wonderful - so good it makes me mad the rest was off. Next time will cut sulfates in half.

BTW - gypsum was divided evenly between mash and sparge. - so 3g in each

Right, but you said you also used MgSO4. It's ok to use them in the mash and sparge, but that's a lot of sulfate as you know.

Most of my IPAs are in the 150 ppm range, but I have one recipe that I like with 250 ppm. I make a ton of APAs and IPAs (those are my favorite styles) but I'm not a fan of heavy sulfate in any of them except that one. The rye IPA I have on tap right now has 15% rye, 10% crystal, and 75 IBUs with 148 ppm sulfate. It's firmly bitter, with a dry finish, and I wouldn't have wanted to go higher on the sulfate.

 

[Redlantern]

Good to know. Since just starting out - kind of went with the Burton on Trent thing. Read report where their water is at 720ppm. Half that value seemed good. Further review shows water profiles for light colored and hoppy should be about 150 as you suggested earlier

 

[TheMadKing]

I agree that it's likely your sulfate levels, but another possibility is that it's just yeast byproducts or hops (specifically pellet hops) residue still in suspension. I've frequently had harsh bitterness develop near the end of primary fermentation, but it always seems to clear up once the beer is cold and carbonated (but not before). I don't know 100% for sure what's causing it, but yeast byproducts or possibly hop residue in suspension seems to make sense considering they both drop out when the beers is cold.

 

[Redlantern]

I agree that it's likely your sulfate levels, but another possibility is that it's just yeast byproducts or hops (specifically pellet hops) residue still in suspension. I've frequently had harsh bitterness develop near the end of primary fermentation, but it always seems to clear up once the beer is cold and carbonated (but not before). I don't know 100% for sure what's causing it, but yeast byproducts or possibly hop residue in suspension seems to make sense considering they both drop out when the beers is cold.

Yup - hoping that sulfates can be precipitated a bit by a cold crash. Weather is perfect for that right now. A room in my basement drops to about 40°F for the winter if I let it and it stays nice and stable. Beer is amazingly clear already so I ma not sure what else can drop out, but there always seems to be something coming out of solution.