Big grain bill logistics

[kanzimonson]

I'm thinking about doing a 1.150 monster beer using techniques from the Dogfish 120 recipe. My recipe will have about 27# of grain. Typically I mash at 1.5qts/#. I can easily fit all this in my MLT.

However, when I calculate my sparge water (I fly sparge), I'll only be able to sparge with a little over a gallon thanks to all the absorption. This is with a 90min boil.

So my question to other brewers is how you typically handle huge grain bills when it comes to distributing your mash and sparge water. I could lower the mash water ratio which would allow me to tack on some more sparge water, but only a few more gallons.

When we're talking 1gal versus 4gal, is it really going to help that much? I'm already planning on only getting 65% efficiency, but maybe I should lower that some more. Hell, I could mash at 1qt/# but damn that's thick.

 

[Bombo80]

Have you thought of splitting the mash into two batches ? That is what I did when I brewed my Utopia clone.

 

[kanzimonson]

But that wouldn't really solve my problem - 27# of grain is still going to absorb X amount, whether it's split in 1 mash or 15.

Remember, I'm not solving the problem of fitting everything in my MLT - I have a 15gal heavy duty kettle from morebeer. It's maximizing efficiency that I'm concerned about.

 

[ksbrain]

I think the only way is to do a super long boil.

Though I thought the DFH120 recipe was an average strength starting wort fed over the course of a week or more incrementally with lots of corn sugar.

 

[devilishprune]

I can only second the idea that you had initially: lower the mashing thickness and increase the water that you sparge with.

1:1 is going to be a pain to mix, but if you get 4 gallons to sparge with instead of one it should increase your efficiency. It will be especially apparent if you do 2 or 3 batch sparges with that volume.

Also, you could increase your boil time to 90 or 120 minutes so that you can collect more wort.

Edit: I just read that you fly sparge. I would still think that more sparging (up to 1.010 SG, or whenever you stop) would lead to an increased efficiency.

 

[kanzimonson]

ksbrain: Because it wasn't relevant to my question, I didn't mention the 6.5# of dextrose I'll be adding to the fermentation.

devilishprune: There's pretty much no way I'll get to 1.010 with this, so it will definitely be "sparge until you don't have anymore sparge water." I was already planning for a 90min boil, but you're right that 120 would let me use that much more... of course, that just makes me think it would be better to spend more on grain and less on propane...

 

[Shay]

Have you considered making it a pm? You could cut the base malt down to something more manageable and make up the difference with DME.

 

[nebben]

When I did my first barleywine, I got about 59% efficiency. I had been hoping for 65%, but unfortunately since I was batch sparging and mashing less than 1.25qt/pound, I didn't get that. I only collected first runnings and some of the first sparge. This was all in 6.5G pre-boil pot. The partigyle that followed helped even things out since I didn't have to waste all those sugars. I suppose with a 1.150 beer, you could make a barleywine partigyle and a regular one after getting your initial pot of wort

 

[kanzimonson]

To Shay and nebben: I feel like part of the point of doing an AG batch is not wasting money on extract.

I'm pretty sure I will do a second partigyle batch, just cause I can't stand the thought of waste.

Good to know you planned for 65% and only got 59%... maybe I need to lower my expectations as well.

 

[ksbrain]

I'm talking about this recipe (though I wouldn't do that elaborate mash). It's only 16.5# grain and uses 11# corn sugar (for five gallons). Still a big mash but not 27#.

To me AG is good for saving money but more about doing things you couldn't do with extract. Plus, if you're only planning for 50% efficiency, is it still cheaper?

 

[Bombo80]

I guess I misunderstood your initial question. When I brewed my utopia clone, I split the grain bill into two mashes. The amount of water that the grain absorbs is just something you have to account for. (This is a major component of BIAB) I had a 59.5# grain bill. I HAD to split it into two mashes, and that was still almost maxing out my MLT. When I finished sparging the first mash, I had the next grains ready to go, the mash in water up to temp, and just started boiling the first mash in my keggle. When the second batch finished mashing, I sparged it and added these runnings to the original batch that was boiling nicely. BTW, I had 13 gallons of wort from each mash session to boil down, so the inital boil time was not an issue, since there was no way I could get 26 gallons into a 16 gallon keggle.

So I still stand by my initial suggestion. Split the mash in two, account for the water absorbtion, use whatever ratio you want (1.25 qt/lb), and whatever your sparge water amount is. The brewing software you are using should be able to caculate all of this for you. Basically you will be mashing like you were doing two brews. If this is not an option, due to the amount of equipment you have, or capacity of your equipment, Then the only suggestion I have is to either borrow some equipment, or scale the brew down to a size that your equipment can handle. I'm trying not to be negative, I just know from first hand experience on a very large grain bill how difficult is can be without alot of equipment, and large capacity equipment too.

Good luck.

 

[kanzimonson]

I'm talking about this recipe (though I wouldn't do that elaborate mash). It's only 16.5# grain and uses 11# corn sugar (for five gallons). Still a big mash but not 27#.

To me AG is good for saving money but more about doing things you couldn't do with extract. Plus, if you're only planning for 50% efficiency, is it still cheaper?

Hmmm, I hadn't looked at the number for that recipe in awhile. I'm pretty sure he ended the boil with an OG of 1.100, and then got the next 100 points (!!!!) of gravity from all the sugar.

My recipe is 70% grain and 30% sugar... maybe I should adjust down some. With my system, I need about 22# to hit 1.100.

Maybe I should just put the maximum amount of grains that will fit in the MLT, collect runnings for the monster beer until I hit my target preboil, and then use the rest for partigyle.

I haven't even thought about the hops yet...

 

[dstar26t]

I did a Barleywine at .78qts/pound above the false bottom. 45 lbs of grain in a converted keg mash tun with a full diameter false bottom. 90 min rest at 146, 20 minute rest at 160 and 15 minute rest at 170. Hit 80.5% efficiency into the full boil kettle. That was higher than expected so I wound up adding more water to the boil kettle before the first hop addition to get the OG I wanted. Wound up with 72.7% attenuation (1.115-1.0295) with a combination of WLP007 (primary), WLP001 (secondary) and 8% corn sugar. I don't know if the water to grain ratio effected the fermentability but the FG was higher than I expected.

 

[kanzimonson]

Your arm muscles must be as big as your head to stir that!

Impressive efficiency there, and not bad attenuation either.

 

[smokinghole]

I also second two mashes. I did a big bad RIS this past October and did two mashes with the 32# grain bill. I boiled for a LONG time and I think I collected in the neighborhood of 15 gallons that I boiled down to 6. That gave me a gravity of 1.152. As a side note I'm using hop shot next year instead of 6oz of C/T/Z.

 

[dstar26t]

I used HopShot @ 90 minutes in the above mentioned Barleywine for 103 IBUs. Worked great. Be prepared to scrub off the resiny residue it leaves on your kettle.

 

[Hex]

I did a Barleywine at .78qts/pound above the false bottom. 45 lbs of grain in a converted keg mash tun with a full diameter false bottom. 90 min rest at 146, 20 minute rest at 160 and 15 minute rest at 170. Hit 80.5% efficiency into the full boil kettle. That was higher than expected so I wound up adding more water to the boil kettle before the first hop addition to get the OG I wanted. Wound up with 72.7% attenuation (1.115-1.0295) with a combination of WLP007 (primary), WLP001 (secondary) and 8% corn sugar. I don't know if the water to grain ratio effected the fermentability but the FG was higher than I expected.

Did you recirculating as shown in your gallery? I think this is where my brewery is headed.:rockin:
https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=24898&cat=all&ppuser=16724

 

[dstar26t]

That's an old pic showing strike/sparge water heating up. The water gets recirculated so the gauge shows a more accurate temp (no temp difference within the HLT).
These pics show mash recirc:

 

[Hex]

So, dstar, is it HERMS or RIMS?
Wouldn't direct fire RIMS work? False bottom keg MLT direct fire RIMS?

 

[dstar26t]

kanzimonson, sorry about the derailment...

Hex,
It's neither. I use steam for steps and recirc at the end of the last step to vorlauf. Faster than direct fire and no risk of scorching.

 

[kanzimonson]

No prob, this is interesting and relevant stuff.

 

[Hex]

Very cool!