Big Beer in a 5 gallon mash tun?

[brewkinger]

I have been thinking about how to do this for a while and I have done some forum searches and really unable to find anything.

I have a 5 gallon round Igloo that I know from experience can handle roughly a 12# grain bill and mash.
What I am wondering is the best way to split the grain bill into 2 separate mashes.
I have a loose to medium grasp on the importance of some of the enzymes from the bast malt being necessary to convert the starches of some of the other grains.

So my plan is to split the grain bill exactly in half and do 2 mashes with equal grain proportions.

Is this my best option? Is there any additional benefit to other options?
For instance one mash that completely fills the cooler and the second a much smaller mash?

 

[spark_plug]

If I were to try this myself, I would split the grain bill by half and do two separate mashes and then combine in the fermenter like you mentioned. If you get reasonably close efficiency on both mashes it would turn out just fine most likely. I've never tried myself, but I can't see why it wouldn't get you to the gravity you are looking for. I'd be interested in your results if you do decide this is what you are going to do.

 

[Riseabovebb]

Your approach seems fine, but it will add a significant amount of time to the brew day. Are you opposed to beefing up the gravity by adding some DME?

 

[MBTB]

You could keep your typical grain bill and reduce the batch size.

 

[cavalrymsh]

You could employ the parti-gyle method with batch sparging to come up with two distinctly different worts. Figure out which aspects you want to change and add additional grains to your cooler after you draw off the first (big) wort.

 

[chickypad]

So the two mashes will all go into the kettle together? Make sure you pay attention to the volume calculations. With a big grain bill you have more mash water, so your first runnings are proportionately larger and you end up sparging less to get the same boil volume. This is one reason folks often get lower efficiency on big beers, unless you raise your boil volume to allow a bigger sparge and just boil longer.
I don't know how big your brew kettle is, but I was just thinking that you don't want to oversparge the first mash then not have room in your kettle for the second mash + some sparge.

 

[brewkinger]

WOW, I have some new options.

1) I did think about the increased time. How would I go about using the add DME option? Mash as much as I can to get color and taste and then light DME to get to OG? (seems easiest)
Mash differently and use a darker DME? (seems trickier)

2) Had not even thought about a smaller batch size. Would merely end up making 2 batches though, as I really want 5 gal of this for a Autumn Harvest Party that I am planning on having. So it would be a real option because it means an extra brew day, which I have no problems with!

3) The parti-gyle option... I have read about this, but as I really want to make a stout, this would not help me much. Unless I misunderstand, that option would give me a big beer and a small beer.

 

[brewkinger]

So the two mashes will all go into the kettle together? Make sure you pay attention to the volume calculations. With a big grain bill you have more mash water, so your first runnings are proportionately larger and you end up sparging less to get the same boil volume. This is one reason folks often get lower efficiency on big beers, unless you raise your boil volume to allow a bigger sparge and just boil longer.
I don't know how big your brew kettle is, but I was just thinking that you don't want to oversparge the first mash then not have room in your kettle for the second mash + some sparge.

Yeah.. my thought is since I usually boil a little over 7 gallons to get to 5.5 into the fermenter, I would use BeerSmith to calculate 2 identical mashes to collect 3.75 gal of runnings for each mash. They should be equal in every way including strike and sparge water amounts (and hopefully gravity) and then just blend them together in a 10 gallon kettle and tweak with DME if needed.
Will this work or am I way off???

 

[dzlater]

How much grain are you planning on using?
At one quart per lb. you should be able to squeeze 15 lbs. in there?
With a couple pounds of DME you should be able to get 5 gallons of 1.10 wort.

 

[brewkinger]

How much grain are you planning on using?
At one quart per lb. you should be able to squeeze 15 lbs. in there?
With a couple pounds of DME you should be able to get 5 gallons of 1.10 wort.

The grain bill for the stout that I am considering is 14.75#.
I have mashed 12# of grain with about 1.33qt/# in the past and it brought it right up to the rim of the cooler and when I put the lid on, it forced about 1/2 cup or so of water out, plus it created a vacuum seal on the cooler that was a ***** to open later on.

Do you mean 5 gal of 1.010 wort with a couple of pounds of DME, cuz I think it would take a lot more than 2# of DME to make 1.100 wort.
EDIT: Just occurred to me that you might have implied mashing 15# of grain THEN adding 2# DME for a 1.100 wort.

I am thinking that this may be the option that best fits.
Just make the appropriate wort with grains and then add light DME to bring it up to the desired OG.

 

[brewkinger]

So I was looking through the recipe forum and came across a new issue. It seems that other stout recipes that I found have a smaller grain bill.
Can someone suggest a decent stout recipe for my first attempt? One that has a grain bill that can fit into my cooler.

Like I said, I have mashed 12# a couple of times for an Irish Red and Big Brown Ale and it barely fits with mash water.
I have also refined my process since these prior beers and am expecting better mash eff, so I could essentially be at the point to use less grain with better efficiency.
For arguments sake, lets assume I will be getting 70% eff.

Good recipes anyone??

 

[Brewmex41]

I posted this same concern in the equipment section.
I put 14lb 10oz into my mash tun. I was aiming for 5 gal of 1.080 wort, but i ended up with 6.5 gal at 1.060
So the efficiency was still about 72% i just didnt do a good enough job stirring each sparge addition.

 

[brewkinger]

So I have decided on the following recipe, which I found here as well as BMW in their recipe section (although their recipe was a little more specific with exact grains like Briess 2 row crystal 60)

7# US 2row
1# Roasted Barley
12oz Crystal 60
12oz Choc Malt
12oz Munich
10oz Flaked Barley
8oz Flaked Oats
0.5oz Northern Brewer [60min] **I have these laying around after recent batch and subbed for .35oz Magnum**
1oz EKG [15min]
1# Lactose [10min]

What I did notice with BeerSmith is that it bumps up OG with the addition of lactose. Does any of it ferment?
If I delete it (which I really would not do) it drops OG down to 1.056 from 1.063 and ABV down to high 5%
Is this a flaw in the BS program?
Should I add it into the recipe in a different way to fix it?
Either way, this sounds like it will fit into my cooler as long as I am dead on with strike temps and do not have to add much to bring it up to mash temps.
I believe the recipe called for mashing at 151, does this sound right??

 

[dzlater]

I posted this same concern in the equipment section.
I put 14lb 10oz into my mash tun. I was aiming for 5 gal of 1.080 wort, but i ended up with 6.5 gal at 1.060
So the efficiency was still about 72% i just didnt do a good enough job stirring each sparge addition.

I don't think stirring had anything to do with it.
You just used to much water.
6.5 gallons of 1.060 wort gives you 390 gravity points.
If you boiled it down to 5 gallons the gravity would have been 1.078, only two points off from the 1.080 you were shooting for.

 

[Brewmex41]

I ended my boil with about 5.5 gallons then sparged again and boiled that down to a gallon.

 

[chickypad]

What I did notice with BeerSmith is that it bumps up OG with the addition of lactose. Does any of it ferment?
If I delete it (which I really would not do) it drops OG down to 1.056 from 1.063 and ABV down to high 5%
Is this a flaw in the BS program?
Should I add it into the recipe in a different way to fix it?
Either way, this sounds like it will fit into my cooler as long as I am dead on with strike temps and do not have to add much to bring it up to mash temps.
I believe the recipe called for mashing at 151, does this sound right??

The lactose issue is a problem with Beersmith - it treats it as fermentable. Brad Smith is aware of the issue and I understand it is one of the things on the list to be fixed next update. For the purposes of calculating ABV I would leave it out, then manually add to your OG and FG. I would think since you're sweetening with lactose mashing a little low for a stout like 151 might be a good idea. No direct experience though, I'm not a big fan of sweet stouts.

 

[chickypad]

I posted this same concern in the equipment section.
I put 14lb 10oz into my mash tun. I was aiming for 5 gal of 1.080 wort, but i ended up with 6.5 gal at 1.060
So the efficiency was still about 72% i just didnt do a good enough job stirring each sparge addition.

I ended my boil with about 5.5 gallons then sparged again and boiled that down to a gallon.

Yeah, I don't know what this has to do with stirring either, sounds like you have issues calculating your boil off. Regardless, I think you need your own thread as this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OP's questions.

 

[Brewmex41]

Op asked about getting 12 # into a 5 gal mash tun. I was just sharing that its possible to do more, my technique was wrong.

 

[brewkinger]

And now back on topic...

I think that the issue with BrewMex problem was not stirring but just plain oversparging. Unless I read something wrong, you were aiming for 5g an ended up with 6.5? To me that is just dilution.
The other issue that I thought was about too much grain results in lower grist ratio and that can be bad for efficiency.
If I was better at linking other pages on HBT, I would link the thread that has a neat little chart of Can I mash it?

 

[ODG34]

Why not make yourself a new larger mash tun? I use an Igoo Cube. Last night I mashed and 18# grain bill with ease.

 

[brewkinger]

Why not make yourself a new larger mash tun? I use an Igoo Cube. Last night I mashed and 18# grain bill with ease.

An option that I did consider but SWMBO has set the threshold for spending for now ( she is justified)

 

[wilserbrewer]

Rather than two separate mashes in your 5 gal. MT. Get a paint strainer bag, mash half the grain BIAB style in your kettle, while the other half is in your mash tun...combine and boil.

 

[brewkinger]

Rather than two separate mashes in your 5 gal. MT. Get a paint strainer bag, mash half the grain BIAB style in your kettle, while the other half is in your mash tun...combine and boil.

Chuckle chuckle... now that is a good vendor! Pimping his wares. Much appreciated advice wilser...

I knew that if I waited long enough, someone would chime in with the obviously overlooked "obvious" answer. With the equipment that I have, this option will work well.
Heat up strike water in 11g kettle, mash in to cooler MLT and use other 5g kettle (which has a thermometer) to BIAB the remainder and be able to keep a good eye on the temperature of the kettle mash.

The point is kind of moot at this point, as I found a recipe with a smaller grain bill that will most likely fit into the 5g cooler.

Is my thinking correct though with regards to increased efficiency allowing the brewer to use a smaller grain bill?

I must have been looking at a recipe for a more "Imperial" stout that needed almost 15# of grain OR the recipe was provided by someone that gets low efficiency and they needed that much grain to get their gravity numbers.

Thanks for all the help, it is much appreciated.

 

[wilserbrewer]

The two recipes are completely different! Yes, a huge grain bill typically results in less efficiency due to having less water to rinse the grain.

The recipe was likely not provided by someone that gets low efficiency.

You could also do one large mash in your 11 gal kettle, then transfer to your 5 gal. MLT to strain / laughter, and sparge if you wish.

Just scoop the mash out with a small pot or pitcher. Cold sparge / rinse if needed as well. Many many ways to get it done.

Sorry if my suggestion came off as pimping the wares...not really my intent

 

[stpug]

brewkinger: I have done several 15 lb grainbills in my 5 gallon round cooler. I take a subtle efficiency hit (2% maybe) but they always turn out well. I simply dough in with a 0.9:1 water:grist ratio and when things are mixed fairly well I top up to within 1/2" of top of cooler with strike water and give a few more careful stirs. It usually ends up about 1.1:1 water:grist ratio. Regardless, the recipe you posted several post back is under 12 lb which should be no problem.

OT: I _DO_ believe brewmex41's stirring was what lead to ineffective sugar extraction in the MLT. You can see more here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/wh...ash-lauter-tun-417796/index2.html#post5299466

 

[brewkinger]

Wilser: no need to apologize, no harm done. If anything, as a vendor your natural instincts are to bring your product into use in brewing, so I say pimp on!!

Follow up question though. So low efficiency is inherent in big grain bills even if done in larger MLT?

 

[brewkinger]

Stpug: thanks for the link back to brewmex thread. Def cleared it up for me. I was just unclear about what he had done and I thought he just plain oversparging.

 

[stpug]

Follow up question though. So low efficiency is inherent in big grain bills even if done in larger MLT?

Low efficiency? No. Reduced efficiency? Usually for MLT people it's pretty standard. I average about 74% on "normal" grainbills and will get about 72% on 15 lb grainbills (15 is my max on my 5 gallon cooler). I think you may take a slightly larger hit with a larger cooler (4-5%) because you'd normally dough-in with a larger ratio (1.25+:1) which will leave you with less water for sparging (i.e. rinsing the sugars). Since my 15 lb grainbills are in the neighborhood of 1:1 I'm still left with decent water for sparging/rinsing.

 

[brewkinger]

So it all really boils down (no pun intended) to sparge water shortage being the efficiency culprit. So much water used to mash that grains are not rinsed as well.
So back in topic, if a large grain bill was to be done in 5g cooler, stirring well during sparging would be ESSENTIAL!!!

 

[stpug]

I should also mention that your mash temp and yeast attenuation is going to have a HUGE impact on the "bigness" of the beer.

For example:
Same grainbill, different mash temp, different yeast = ~2% ABV difference
A 15 lb grainbill (~1.077) with 1968 yeast (67-71AA) mashed at 154F will yield an ~7.2% beer.
A 15 lb grainbill (~1.077) with 3711 yeast (77-83AA) mashed at 148F will yield an ~9.0% beer.

Same grainbill, same mash temp, different yeast = >1% ABV difference
A 15 lb grainbill (~1.077) with 1968 yeast (67-71AA) mashed at 152F will yield an ~7.4% beer.
A 15 lb grainbill (~1.077) with 3711 yeast (77-83AA) mashed at 152F will yield an ~8.5% beer.

So you can help tailor the "bigness" of your beer by paying close attention to these variables. Granted there are times when some of these aren't too adjustable, but they are always adjustable to some extent.

 

[stpug]

So it all really boils down (no pun intended) to sparge water shortage being the efficiency culprit. So much water used to mash that grains are not rinsed as well.
So back in topic, if a large grain bill was to be done in 5g cooler, stirring well during sparging would be ESSENTIAL!!!

I doubt that IT ALL boils down water shortage, but I think that has A LOT to do with it. Conversion should be equal as long as you get full conversion, which leaves extraction from the grain. Stirring is the batch spargers single best weapon of getting those sugars into solution so they can be retrieved - aside from squeezing the crap out of the grains