BIAB sparge - not for me

[soccerdad]

Let me start by saying that I’m strictly referring here to my own experience, my own process, my own preferences. If what I offer here helps anyone – great! If it doesn’t, then shake the dust off your sandals, move on, and keep with the process that helps you most.

I have always been a Full Volume Mash person. If I need 8 gallons to make 5, I start with 8. I tend to always hit my numbers and tend to exceed 75% mash efficiency. But on occasion I have a larger grain bill, which means more water displacement and rather than get out the big kettle (and brew outdoors), I will adjust the recipe down slightly, and make 4 gallons instead of 5. All still FVM.

However, when I read here about how you guys sparge with BIAB, and how seemingly easy it is, I figured I would try it today. I knew my grain bill was big enough to overflow the kettle, so I held back 2 gallons in my old 5 gallon kettle, heated it to 170, and was ready to pull the bag on completion of the mash, rinse the grains in the 2 gallons, combine the 2 worts into one … and Bob’s your uncle!

The initial move from the larger kettle to the smaller was ok. Drips but no spills. Although I was damn glad that I had only used 1.5 of the set aside 2 gallons .. 2 would have overflowed. Then after 10 minutes I pulled the bag again and slipped the colander under the bag. Now we have problems .. larger grain bill in normal colander .. ooze over the side – onto the stool – onto the floor. Muttering some choice words I stay on task (or try to), and combine the two worts after getting to the sink, mopping the sticky floor, keeping spills to a minimum. Eventually I got things under control, cleaned up any messes, and lost a minimum of precious wort.

But Bob is not my uncle and I doubt that I will do this again. It’s not that I want easy, but I do want simple and measured. With FVM I:
Pull the bag once
Understand my water loss more accurately
Focus more on the simple steps of measure, grind, heat, mash, boil – done
Here I had to measure water twice, heat water twice, assume what the gravity of two worts would be, and juggle 2 kettlesl

I will stick with FVM for now

 

[Kharnynb]

I always let gravity first drain the bag on top of the old kettle for at least 15 mins before i move it to kettle 2, otherwise the grain has way to much good and thick mash in it.

The mess is kinda your own fault for not planning ahead

Ikea and many other places do "full sink" sieves that are great for resting a mashbag on top of the kettle.

 

[Kharnynb]

I often use my fermenting bucket for the sparge dunk, easy to just drop a few gallons of water in that i boiled with an electric kettle.

 

[pretzelb]

Thanks for sharing that story. It confirms some concerns I have had on the sparge process. I think it works fine if you have the equipment to support it but is can be an issue if you try to ad-lib with spare parts.

I'm looking at a new biab system with a 20g kettle and I'm not so sure what sparging I could do without an identical 20g kettle. My system will include a basket and a pulley so I might be able to simple pour over with cold water but an equal runnings or dunk might be problematic.

But I hope to make it work. I've done some of the math and there are some recipes that push the capacity of the system I'd like to try.

 

[soccerdad]

With a 20G kettle I would not sparge at all (I can't see the combination of water and grain exceeding the capacity). There is really no need to sparge with BIAB - but many do, and they like it and it works for them. Which is good. But as I said - not for me. Which is also good

 

[pretzelb]

Fwiw, the recipe that exceeded capacity on the 20g kettle was the barley wine from Brewing Classic Styles. When I doubled the 5g recipe it just pushed it over capacity. Of course I could just target 8 or 9 gallons instead.

 

[Gavin C]

...

I have always been a Full Volume Mash person.

Avoiding a mess and taking steps to eliminate mess has been front and center in my approach too. Your post makes a lot of sense to me.

Sounds like you had a messy time of it.

 

[chickypad]

The only reason I sparge with BIAB is due to a kettle size restriction, I would prefer FV mash but can only manage it on a few select recipes. At least I'm only making 3 gal batches so it's still a pretty simple process. With 75%+ efficiency if you've got the room I wouldn't change anything.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I similarly had a rough time juggling the switch over the first time I did a non full volume biab. However I didn't have the ability to do anything otherwise at the time, so I sat back, looked at the problem and came up with a couple solutions. Every consequtive batch has been rather hassle free.

I can totally see your side of the coin though, and after I do a couple more batches I may go back to doing full volumes. However I really enjoy my current pico batch mash tun (slow cooker) as it's dead simple to use and it controls my mash temp perfectly, but it's only 1 gal so I pretty much have to do a batch sparge when I want to use it for my .75-1.5G batches.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Yes I agree. A hassle sparge is just not worth it. I like to do a small pour over sparge as the bag hangs over the kettle on a ratchet pulley, not so much for the point of sparging but more so as a pre boil volume adjustment. This allows me to be lax on strike volume and make an accurate adjustment with a sparge.

 

[4arrows]

My question is not argumentative,
I am just curious as to why you would not want to sparge at all? Aren't there lots of ferment-able sugars and tons of flavor to be rinsed out of the grain? I'm kinda new to this and am just curious.

 

[soccerdad]

The idea with (early experiments) in BIAB was that a sparge was not necessary because the extra volume of water provided the equivalent of a rinse. This has pretty much been supported by the efficiences you see folks getting .. 75 and 80+ Yes - you probably leave some sugars, but every brewing method does. You don't get 100% .. you just don't. I'm satisfied at 75 to 80 without going the extra (sparge) step. YMMV

 

[MandingaBIAB]

Just be sure that the sparge water is hot enough for mash out temperature. Enzyme concentration in the grain bag can be much too dense, causing an increase in wort viability that can cause your beer to finish much too dry for the best taste.

 

[chisena]

A recurring theme from this particular contributor

Hard to know where to start with that.

View attachment 311952

Another recent gem

I suppose we are all entitled to our opinions. Although I fail to see the purpose of the original post. Yeah so it didn't work out for you the first time. Try again. It's a learning experience.

 

[soccerdad]

I like to do a small pour over sparge as the bag hangs over the kettle on a ratchet pulley, not so much for the point of sparging but more so as a pre boil volume adjustment. This allows me to be lax on strike volume and make an accurate adjustment with a sparge.

I would prefer this approach - I have seen you write this before and I like hearing it again. It is very similar to what I did (may still do) with Partial Mashes. If I were to ever decide to hold back water in the future - for water displacement issues - I would have enough for a large tea kettle (or 2 or 3) and use that as a 'pour over sparge'. The tea kettle allows for 'aiming' the water strategically as well.

 

[soccerdad]

sorry if my intro did not make that clear

I fail to see the purpose of the original post

just sharing my own experience and process

so it didn't work out for you the first time

It didn't NOT work out, it was just not necessary with the task at hand .. more investment for little return (in my opinion)

Try again.

no thanks .. maybe that was the point .. for me, I will not go through those extra gyrations for so little gain .. others may certainly feel differently than I. As I said in the OP, if it helps anyone with their processes, great, if not, discard it.

 

[Psylocide]

Huge believer in full volume mashing here.

Once I switched to full volume, I gained a 5% bump in efficiency (consistently 80% now). There is nothing easier than just raising the bag after the mash and letting it hang there for a half hour or so. I squeeze it a little at first, but don't really go crazy with it.

10 gal batches are so easy. Couldn't imagine having to mess around with dunk sparging.



View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1445866589.885490.jpg

 

[Aristotelian]

My question is not argumentative,
I am just curious as to why you would not want to sparge at all? Aren't there lots of ferment-able sugars and tons of flavor to be rinsed out of the grain? I'm kinda new to this and am just curious.

As a beginner, to me it is about repeatability. Single infusion/no sparge is just a straightforward process with the fewest possible steps. Much less variation to screw up your numbers. I would rather hit 67% every time than 72% +/- 3%. You have to increase your grain bill by 5% but that is a small price to pay when you know your process is going to give you the wort that you want. To me, at the end of the day it is about the wort and recipe, not the amount of sugar you get out of the grain.

Also less equipment, everything is done in the kettle.

Yes, you are leaving sugar in the grain, but to me it's

 

[MaxStout]

Huge believer in full volume mashing here.

Once I switched to full volume, I gained a 5% bump in efficiency. There is nothing easier than just raising the bag after the mash and letting it hang there for a half hour or so. I squeeze it a little at first, but don't really go crazy with it.

10 gal batches are so easy. Couldn't imagine having to mess around with dunk sparging.



View attachment 311987

That's my process now. Five or 10 gallon batches, full-volume mash. Then hoist up the bag, let it drip into the kettle while I bring it to a boil.

The only time I do a sparge is in winter, when I brew 2.5-3 gal batches in a 5 gal kettle on the stove. I don't have room for full volume, but I pour a couple gallons over the bag sitting in a strainer.

 

[Kharnynb]

sadly, a lot of us are limited in funds and space, I can't physically fit a much bigger kettle on my stove, let alone afford a 200+ euro kettle just like that.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

everybody has their process. Here's mine.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=492158

See post 4. The photos aren't mine, but I have adjusted my process to be similar with excellent results. Perforated 5 gallon bucket goes into 7 gallon fermenter. Grain bag is pulled and dropped into perforated bucket. Gravity squeezes virtually every drop out of the grains. I switch the perforated bucket between 2 ferementers and pour the runnings into the kettle as it is heating. If I were shy on volume I would simply pour water over the grains and let it drip further.

 

[soccerdad]

sadly, a lot of us are limited in funds and space, I can't physically fit a much bigger kettle on my stove, let alone afford a 200+ euro kettle just like that.

that was a part of my point in the OP Kharnynb ... many homebrewers have a 'starter' kettle that holds 5 gallons and you can very often do a Full Volume Mash in a 5G kettle that will yield 2.5 gallons in the fermentor. So I (personally) would be more likely to downsize and do the 2.5 gallons rather feel that I 'needed' to sparge to get more beer

 

[whovous]

Avoiding a mess and taking steps to eliminate mess has been front and center in my approach too. Your post makes a lot of sense to me.

Sounds like you had a messy time of it.

I am beginning to think that a quality bucket and mop need to becom part of my brewing equipment.

 

[AnOldUR]

Or you could just slowly pump sparge water thru the bag while the wort is coming to a boil.

:cross:

 

[redshift76]

I've been using this method for a few years now & really like it. Perforated bucket sits in the ale pail, grain bag gets pulled & dropped there. From there you can drain only, squeeze (I set 5 gallon bucket on top of the grain bag & just sit on it for a while) or you can sparge. I usually squeeze, sparge with a 1/2 gallon hot water the squeeze again. Super easy, no mess.

 

[BigJack]

I'm no sparger, but I will squeeze that bag like a mofo.

 

[broadbill]

I've been using this method for a few years now & really like it. Perforated bucket sits in the ale pail, grain bag gets pulled & dropped there. From there you can drain only, squeeze (I set 5 gallon bucket on top of the grain bag & just sit on it for a while) or you can sparge. I usually squeeze, sparge with a 1/2 gallon hot water the squeeze again. Super easy, no mess.

Dear lord, we are right back where we started 30 years ago with Charlie P's Zapap lauter system! What is old is new again...lol!

NOTE: My Zapap bucket holds my kids bathtub toys these days...

 

[Brew_G]

I always let gravity first drain the bag on top of the old kettle for at least 15 mins before i move it to kettle 2, otherwise the grain has way to much good and thick mash in it.

The mess is kinda your own fault for not planning ahead

Ikea and many other places do "full sink" sieves that are great for resting a mashbag on top of the kettle.

I have a 9-gallon kettle, and this is the colander that I use to sparge with. I put it on top of my pressure cooker kettle, place the bag in it, then pour sparge water over it to make up the remainder of my volume. I then pour the runnings into my kettle to reach boil volume. I've dunked once and may do it again.

As for squeezing, I recently bought a pair of silicone BBQ gloves, and they work awesome for squeezing the bag. It's still pretty hot if you try to hold the bag for too long, but give it a little time between squeezes and you can really extract a lot of liquid from the bag.

Overall, if I'm going to brew, I want to get the most from my time and effort, so I'd rather sparge and do five gallons than not sparge and only get four gallons. Sparging is simple, and brewing outside means I don't really worry if there's a little spillage - and at this point, I've become pretty good at not losing any wort!

To each their own...

 

[broadbill]

Overall, if I'm going to brew, I want to get the most from my time and effort, so I'd rather sparge and do five gallons than not sparge and only get four gallons. Sparging is simple, and brewing outside means I don't really worry if there's a little spillage - and at this point, I've become pretty good at not losing any wort!

To each their own...

You can still get five gallons by starting with more water...the issue is wort sugar extraction; without "rinsing" with the sparge more fermentables are left in the grain bed/bag/etc.

If you really wanted to get the most out of your time and effort, you'd go with fly-sparging, but we all draw the line somewhere.

 

[broadbill]

Kinda funny that when batch sparging came on the scene it was criticized by the fly spargers for the efficiency loss. Then when BIAB came on-line, it was criticized by the batch spargers for the efficiency hit. Now we have the sparging BIABers criticizing no-sparge BIABers for the efficiency hit....

As good ol' Kurt V said "So it goes"...

 

[wilserbrewer]

Also kinda funny how only a few short years ago full volume mashing was not popular at all. Why would one intentionally and predictably accept a lower efficiency? It just made no sense at the time to so many, now it seems fully acceptable and rather popular...."so it goes."

 

[nutty_gnome]

Or you could just slowly pump sparge water thru the bag while the wort is coming to a boil.

I have thought about this... but the risks of it all going horribly wrong are too great. I salute you for daring to go where I would not!

 

[Psylocide]

In my mind, 80% efficiency is great.

Could I squeeze another 5% out by using some method of sparging and not doing full volume? I dunno, maybe. But it's not worth the trade off for sake of simplicity.

 

[hunter_le five]

In my mind, 80% efficiency is great.

Could I squeeze another 5% out by using some method of sparging and not doing full volume? I dunno, maybe. But it's not worth the trade off for sake of simplicity.

I've never understood the efficiency argument when talking about small percentage gains or losses on a homebrew scale.

On a commercial level, okay, it makes sense. 5% on a 40bbl batch is significant. On a 5 gallon batch, no, it's not. Grain is cheap. If my efficiency is lower than the base recipe assumes, I'll just increase the grainbill slightly to compensate. I value simplicity more than I value hyper-efficiency.

80% efficiency is more than adequate.

 

[RM-MN]

Also kinda funny how only a few short years ago full volume mashing was not popular at all. Why would one intentionally and predictably accept a lower efficiency? It just made no sense at the time to so many, now it seems fully acceptable and rather popular...."so it goes."

If you are using the conventional mash tun for your full volume/ no sparge and are getting 50 to 60% efficiency then no sparge would seem a poor bet but the first BIAB batch I made I didn't sparge and got 80% efficiency. Now it seems like less of a hit on efficiency to full volume mash and sparging seems more of a chore. I only do it because I brew on the kitchen stove and the smaller boil pot fits better but it's a little small for the full volume.

 

[broadbill]

I just had my maiden voyage on a CB20 setup I built and got 70% and was happy with that (recirculating no-sparge). Part of me wishes that I went even simpler and did a 1 vessel/brew-in-a-bag setup, but I'll stick with 70% if it means not having to deal with the hot wet heavy bag of grain.

I could probably eek out another 10% if I milled my own grain, but I don't feel like going there yet.

 

[broadbill]

If you are using the conventional mash tun for your full volume/ no sparge and are getting 50 to 60% efficiency then no sparge would seem a poor bet but the first BIAB batch I made I didn't sparge and got 80% efficiency. Now it seems like less of a hit on efficiency to full volume mash and sparging seems more of a chore. I only do it because I brew on the kitchen stove and the smaller boil pot fits better but it's a little small for the full volume.

...and we all know you are on the bleeding edge of how fine you can mill grains...so 80% is likely the upper threshold for no-sparge!

80% is definitely good enough at the homebrew scale.

 

[Psylocide]

...and we all know you are on the bleeding edge of how fine you can mill grains...so 80% is likely the upper threshold for no-sparge!

80% is definitely good enough at the homebrew scale.

I should mention that I use a blender to turn my grain into damn-near powder. No issues with 'husky' flavors or tannin extraction.

And I've only been adjusting my water for PH for a few brews. And even then, flying blind with Brun Water (no meter).

I couldn't crush any finer if I wanted to.

 

[AnOldUR]

I have thought about this... but the risks of it all going horribly wrong are too great. I salute you for daring to go where I would not!

It's a double dare considering that my brew area is in an open space off the kitchen with hardwood flooring.

I've only used the pump-thru-the-bag sparge method twice and gotten 85% and 86% efficiency. That's with the same crush (husks intact) that I use when brewing three vessel. It's also mashing at less than 2qts/lb and sparging to hit pre-boil volume.

Although some brewers claim to not seeing any difference, I'm still not ready to go with a super fine crush and worry about husk material making it's way to the boil. Or a full volume thin mash and having to worry about pH.

This is not meant to criticize anyone using those methods. Just me being cautious.

 

[Gavin C]

Regardless of method and mash parameters including rest times, temperatures of the rests and crush quality. Near 100% conversion efficiency is an obtainable objective. It is the basis all brewing models I have read about.

That at least should be the goal of conversion in the mash, with lautering efficiency being the main protagonist in determining mash efficiency. A finer crush will allow full conversion to occur more rapidly than a coarser one, all else (times and temperatures) being equal.

I have yet to see from my own results any solid argument against crushing as fine as possible/practicable without getting a stuck mash/sparge and having near 100% conversion efficiency as the goal.

How fine can you crush is dependent on what type of manifold and how much work you want to invest.

I do a single pass of grain at my mill's narrowest setting. Not flour by any means but a lot finer than would be practical if using a false bottom or a bazooka screen.

No sparge, a bag manifold and this type of crush nets me the consistent results I want consistent with a conversion efficiecy well north of 95% (unmeasured and inferred from other values) and ensueing BH efficiency at ~80% with my usual grain-bills.

More grain, more absorption and a predictable drop in lautering efficiency.

For me there is no benefit to be had in the effort-v-return of anything other than a small pour-over-sparge if needed to make pre-boil volume corrections like the one that @Wilserbrewer outlined.

This simple corrective measure was needed a couple of times when I was doing other mashy things making volume calculations more tricky.