BIAB Barleywine (partial mash?)

[L0-FI]

(First new topic post!)
Hello,
I have my first BIAB batch still in primary after a few years of extract brewing (that was very active 8hrs after pitching 2nd gen wy1056)
I ended up getting the 'Brewers Best' American pale ale BIAB kit, since the LHBS recommended it.
The recipe called for a 10gal+ kettle. I had no problems with capacity or hitting my target og range right in the middle with my 9gal kettle.

I immediately started thinking about barleywines. Its been on the checklist for too long and now its time to act.

I'm fairly familiar with some extract, partial mash & all grain barelywine recipes BUT not BIAB + extract... which I guess is still just a partial mash by definition. In most of my findings, 'partial mash' recipes are bound by 'muslin bag boundaries' - only calling for 1-2lbs of grain...

My question is:
Does anybody have a tested BIAB/BAIBextract recipe for a barleywine, without the need of a huge kettle?

If I wanted to keep it all true BIAB, would I need to do two 2.5gal batches and mix? When would I mix them? Small batch is semi-out-of-the-question. I already feel these 5gal batches are small, so shirking my bottle count on something that is meant to age isn't very logical to me.

Or is this all too much work if I have no problems using extract? I'm thinking I could max out to maybe 12-13#'s of grain in my kettle... And then what, just add extract?

I feel like steeping specialty grain +extract has GOT to be different than BIAB+extract...


...but then again, I may have over-thinker-itis..



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[studmonk3y]

I brew exclusively with BIAB and have made barleywines and other big beers before with my system. Basically, once you know the max. capacity of your system (how much grain and water you can get in there without overflowing), you can either:
1) substitute extract to make up for any remaining base malt you won't be able to fit (keep all the required amounts of specialty grains).
2) scale down the recipe to keep it all grain and be able to mash the full volume.

 

[agrazela]

Brew 2 halves and combine them, I do it when I want to brew a big beer using my 5gal kettle.

 

[FatDragon]

Technically, partial mash is any brew that has both mashed grains and extract. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's probably the easiest way to make a big BIAB beer with limited kettle space. You said, "I feel like steeping specialty grain +extract has GOT to be different than BIAB+extract..." and you're right - steeping specialty grains and using extract for your fermentables is extract brewing. Partial mash involves mashing base malt (usually with specialty grains as well) for part of the fermentable sugars and using extract for the other part.

A couple other ideas:

Do a thicker mash than usual and sparge the grain bag in a separate pot or bucket after mashing to get your volume. Leaving water out of the kettle gives you room for more grain, and if you start heating the "first runnings" while you're sparging the bag, it doesn't really take any longer than a regular BIAB batch, just a bit more hands-on work while the wort is coming to a boil.

Do two separate half-volume mashes back to back, reserving the wort from the first mash in a bucket while you do the second mash, then boil it all together.

 

[RM-MN]

First thing to consider is what is your efficiency when you do BIAB. If you get 60% efficiency it will take more grain to reach the "barleywine" OG than if you get 85% efficiency. Be aware that as you go to higher OG's your efficiency may drop too.

If you usually get 85% efficiency, work through your barleywine recipe with a target efficiency of 80% and see how much grain it will need, then see how much water you can fit in the pot with that much grain. Once you know that, you can decide if you can mash the entire amount with the full volume of water, slightly less that full amount with a sparge step, or if you need to do this as a partial mash with added extract.

 

[wilserbrewer]

How big would your AG grain bill be for a 5 gal barley wine?

I would think you could easily mash in your 9 gallon kettle, and dunk sparge the bag once or even twice in a bucket, collect runnings and boil in your 9 gallon kettle.

I see no reason why you need to use extract?

BIAB is not all that much different than 3V brewing as you can batch sparge in a second vessel (dunk sparge), or even mimic a fly sparge by pouring water slowly over and through the bag of grain while over the kettle.

Many small kettle work arounds w BIAB.

As with any method, high gravity will likely be less efficient so you will need to compensate with a bit more grain.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[L0-FI]

Thanks for all of the responses!

FatDragon - thanks for the initial detail. This whole time I'm thinking separate batches (meaning separate boils, then mixing) until you mentioned separate mashes. That makes much more sense.

Wilser- I'm aware of calculators online- but what do you think (given your knowledge on the subject) a ballpark ratio would be to keep from doing separate mashes? I see how a very thick mash with18-20#s of grain could work, but when is it 'too thick'? 1/2qt per lb?

Thanks again for all of te feedback guys. I'm new to this forum and appreciate everyone's input/experience. Homebrewers unite!

I have beer smith 2 - but I'm having difficulties with setting up my equipment, and have been researching how to do it correctly for BIAB

Also - anyone have any tried recipes?
I have beer smith2, but can't seem to configure my equipment correctly. Working on that...


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[wilserbrewer]

Wilser- I'm aware of calculators online- but what do you think (given your knowledge on the subject) a ballpark ratio would be to keep from doing separate mashes? I see how a very thick mash with18-20#s of grain could work, but when is it 'too thick'? 1/2qt per lb?

20 lbs of grain @ 1.4 qt / lb is a mash vol. of 8.6 gal. (1.4 qt/lb is NOT a stiff mash)

1 qt / lb is a stiff mash and you will be way above that, I fail to see an issue here, you have plenty of space in your 9 gal pot. At 1 qt/lb you can mash slightly over 25 lbs of grain in a 9 gallon pot, that's a lot of grain!!!

Cheers!

 

[L0-FI]

20 lbs of grain @ 1.4 qt / lb is a mash vol. of 8.6 gal. (1.4 qt/lb is NOT a stiff mash)

1 qt / lb is a stiff mash and you will be way above that, I fail to see an issue here, you have plenty of space in your 9 gal pot. At 1 qt/lb you can mash slightly over 25 lbs of grain in a 9 gallon pot, that's a lot of grain!!!

Cheers!

Wilser- all great info here! Thanks!
I think i would basically need around 6.5gal of preboil wort to be in the area of 5-5.5gal batch (since that is how my pale ale went) So to take that 1qt/lb mash for BAIB volumes, (5gal water for 20lb grain lets say) after grain absorption, would you sparge/dunk sparge with 1-2gal? Or just boil and top of the fermenter? I feel that much grain would still yield higher sugar than 4.5abv sparge 'runnings'? Watering the wort down seems counterproductive to big beers, and I know my 9gal kettle won't hold a 'no sparge' Barelywine!



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[wilserbrewer]

Well just shooting from the hip, if you mash with say 6 gallons, you will lose about 2 to grain absorption yielding 4 in the kettle, then sparge with say 3 to 4 gallons to yield a total of 7-8 gallons preboil, then boil that down to say 6 gallons to yield 5 gallons of barley wine, less a gallon shrinkage and trub losses etc.

I would always prefer to sparge over adding water.

When thinking BIAB, I find it easier to think in terms of total water required rather than mash ratios.

With a huge beer like this usually better to err and collect more runnings and boil longer than be short runnings and top up post boil.

Be aware of what you have in the kettle during the process and adjust as needed post mash, and post sparge, or even topping up the kettle with additional runnings say prior to the last 45 minutes of the boil.

Cheers and hope this helps.


Wilserbrewer
Http://biabbags.webs.com/

 

[FatDragon]

Look at the sparge vs. top-off question this way: topping off dilutes your wort a lot because plain water has no fermentable sugars. Sparging and adding those runnings dilutes your wort a little because it contains fermentable sugars. The difference between the two methods in a big beer could be the difference between an OG of 1.090 and an OG of 1.110.

Basically, BIAB should be done either by full-volume mashing or partial volume mashing + a sparge. There's no good reason to partial volume mash and add top-off water unless you're trying to make a really light beer, or you're going to sparge your grains for a parti-gyle batch.

 

[L0-FI]

Wilserbrewer - Thanks for insight. For Real!!:rockin:
You pop up in most of the 'staple' BIAB threads somewhere (from my research!) & always have insightful information.

I've been reading my books, and (with a grain of salt) reading forums even out of this website to further my brew knowledge - and there are some things that you have to attempt and adjust to find out. I'm going to attempt a barelywine/session beer partigyle jam session this saturday. I saw you in a post that was related to BIAB & partigyle which ties into the current big picture.

I'm going to attempt to adjust an AG BW recipe I have from a book "The Brew-Masters Bible" for BIAB this weekend. My goal is to include a dunk sparge to reach 5.5gal into the first primary fermentor. (NOT BIAB, then 'first runnings' = 3gal primary with '2nd runnings' = 5gal primary. Attempting two complete 5gal batches.)

Of course I'll have some LME or DME on deck to beef this '2nd running' session if I'm way too low on OG. No shame in my game with extracts, since I just racked my first BIAB to secondary, and especially if I can reuse all this grain somehow.
I was at first thinking a pale session, but may lead towards an amber if I grab some extract tomorrow/experiment with adding some adjuncts prior to 2nd (separate) boil.

Another semi- related brainstorm.. (that may need it's own thread..)
I have a 5gal MI wildflower medium mead & 5gal Fl semi-sweet orange blossom mead both in secondary. Since I was planning on divvying these us for 'dry-hopping' of different herbs/fruits.. the barleywine idea resurfaced.

Any problem with aging 4gal BW mixed with 1gal mead? Aside from the nightcap's nightcap?