Groovy_Tunes
New Member
Hey there fellow brewers,
I'm somewhat new to all grain brewing (I've done about 10 batches so far). That being said, I have something of a vision of what I want to brew and have researched extensively to achieve it. What I'd like to do is develop recipes for a Trappist Dubbel and abt/quad. My favorite beers in this category would be St. Bernardus and Rochefort (I've been using the abt 12 and the 10 respectively as my model beers). I've brewed two iterations of a dubbel largely inspired by clone recipes of the Rochefort 10. I'm not really concerned with making an accurate clone, just something that tastes like what I want. Anyway, one of the most pleasant flavors that I get in the Rochefort 10 that I find much less distinct in other Trappist ales is what I would call a bread crust flavor. It mates perfectly with the toffee crystal-malt flavors in the beer. Unfortunately, my first dubbel which I have on tap now is lacking this delightful bread crust highlight (I'll post the recipe I used in a sec).
My brewing buddy and I happen to have a bunch of relatively small OG beers in primary and secondary right now, so we figured it would be a good time to brew some big beers that we could condition while we are consuming these smaller projects which will be ready soon. The time has come to try a quad/BDSA; however, if I'm going to be waiting six months to try it, I want to get the bread crust flavors as best as I can. From what I've read, I get the impression that a significant quantity of Biscuit malt with maybe 2 or 3 oz of carafa III (5g batch) will contribute a bread crust flavor. Here's where my doubts with this come in:
1. I used .75 lbs of Biscuit malt and 2 oz of Carafa II in my first dubbel and had no discernible bread crustiness, although it could be masked by the hops which could be a little heavy for the recipe, or the yeast (WLP 500, I had no Wyeast Abbey II on hand, but I got it for the quad now).
2. None of the Rochefort clones I've read about, and few dark trappist recipes I've looked at at all have any biscuit malt whatsoever. about a half pound of aromatic malt seems to be a common denominator of these recipes. Admittedly I included a half pound of aromatic in Dubbel #1 (perhaps I'm being heavy handed on the specialty grains, but like I said, I don't really mind pushing out of the style guidelines), and still no breadcrust. Here's the clone recipes I've looked at:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/rochefort-10-clone-35858/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/rochefort-10-clone-81298/
http://www.brewplus.com/forum/alt-beer-home-brewing/3126-rochefort-tripple-clone-trappist.html
and perhaps a couple of others.
So, this was basically a long-winded preface to the question: how does biscuit malt (perhaps in conjunction with a bit of carafa III) play into the flavor profile of a beer, specifically, can it lend a bread crust flavor, and if not, what does? Even more specifically, if the Rochefort 10 recipes are lacking biscuit malt, what is the bread-crustiness from that I tasted there?
I'm thinking of being very heavy with biscuit malt in the quad (2 lbs), with 3 oz of carafa III and cutting down a bit on Special B and CaraMunich. FYI, the second dubbel I brewed is more of a study of the Special B and CaraMunich malts; I significantly increased the quantities of CM (2lbs) and SB (1lbs) to get a handle on exactly what type of flavors they contribute (presumably toffee and raisin).
Here's my dubbel recipe (and note that while it is too dark for a dubbel, the flavor, aroma, and body certainly fall in the category, also, we're getting rid of the oats; just playing around with that one. We also have a sack of belgian pilsner for the base).
BS 8
A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 13.13
Anticipated OG: 1.062 Plato: 15.15
Anticipated SRM: 31.8
Anticipated IBU: 25.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 57 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes
Formulas Used
-------------
Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.
Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager
Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %
Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
49.5 6.50 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
7.6 1.00 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033 2
5.7 0.75 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24
1.9 0.25 lbs. Brown Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 60
3.8 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
7.6 1.00 lbs. CaraMunich Malt Belgium 1.033 75
17.1 2.25 lbs. Date Syrup Israel 1.035 60
1.0 0.13 lbs. Carafa Chocolate Malt Germany 1.030 525
5.7 0.75 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.75 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 19.5 75 min.
0.75 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 4.00 4.7 20 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 4.00 1.6 5 min.
Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP500 Trappist Ale
Thanks guys, these forums have been super helpful so far!
I'm somewhat new to all grain brewing (I've done about 10 batches so far). That being said, I have something of a vision of what I want to brew and have researched extensively to achieve it. What I'd like to do is develop recipes for a Trappist Dubbel and abt/quad. My favorite beers in this category would be St. Bernardus and Rochefort (I've been using the abt 12 and the 10 respectively as my model beers). I've brewed two iterations of a dubbel largely inspired by clone recipes of the Rochefort 10. I'm not really concerned with making an accurate clone, just something that tastes like what I want. Anyway, one of the most pleasant flavors that I get in the Rochefort 10 that I find much less distinct in other Trappist ales is what I would call a bread crust flavor. It mates perfectly with the toffee crystal-malt flavors in the beer. Unfortunately, my first dubbel which I have on tap now is lacking this delightful bread crust highlight (I'll post the recipe I used in a sec).
My brewing buddy and I happen to have a bunch of relatively small OG beers in primary and secondary right now, so we figured it would be a good time to brew some big beers that we could condition while we are consuming these smaller projects which will be ready soon. The time has come to try a quad/BDSA; however, if I'm going to be waiting six months to try it, I want to get the bread crust flavors as best as I can. From what I've read, I get the impression that a significant quantity of Biscuit malt with maybe 2 or 3 oz of carafa III (5g batch) will contribute a bread crust flavor. Here's where my doubts with this come in:
1. I used .75 lbs of Biscuit malt and 2 oz of Carafa II in my first dubbel and had no discernible bread crustiness, although it could be masked by the hops which could be a little heavy for the recipe, or the yeast (WLP 500, I had no Wyeast Abbey II on hand, but I got it for the quad now).
2. None of the Rochefort clones I've read about, and few dark trappist recipes I've looked at at all have any biscuit malt whatsoever. about a half pound of aromatic malt seems to be a common denominator of these recipes. Admittedly I included a half pound of aromatic in Dubbel #1 (perhaps I'm being heavy handed on the specialty grains, but like I said, I don't really mind pushing out of the style guidelines), and still no breadcrust. Here's the clone recipes I've looked at:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/rochefort-10-clone-35858/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/rochefort-10-clone-81298/
http://www.brewplus.com/forum/alt-beer-home-brewing/3126-rochefort-tripple-clone-trappist.html
and perhaps a couple of others.
So, this was basically a long-winded preface to the question: how does biscuit malt (perhaps in conjunction with a bit of carafa III) play into the flavor profile of a beer, specifically, can it lend a bread crust flavor, and if not, what does? Even more specifically, if the Rochefort 10 recipes are lacking biscuit malt, what is the bread-crustiness from that I tasted there?
I'm thinking of being very heavy with biscuit malt in the quad (2 lbs), with 3 oz of carafa III and cutting down a bit on Special B and CaraMunich. FYI, the second dubbel I brewed is more of a study of the Special B and CaraMunich malts; I significantly increased the quantities of CM (2lbs) and SB (1lbs) to get a handle on exactly what type of flavors they contribute (presumably toffee and raisin).
Here's my dubbel recipe (and note that while it is too dark for a dubbel, the flavor, aroma, and body certainly fall in the category, also, we're getting rid of the oats; just playing around with that one. We also have a sack of belgian pilsner for the base).
BS 8
A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 13.13
Anticipated OG: 1.062 Plato: 15.15
Anticipated SRM: 31.8
Anticipated IBU: 25.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 57 %
Wort Boil Time: 75 Minutes
Formulas Used
-------------
Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.
Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager
Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %
Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
49.5 6.50 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.038 3
7.6 1.00 lbs. Flaked Oats America 1.033 2
5.7 0.75 lbs. Biscuit Malt Belgium 1.035 24
1.9 0.25 lbs. Brown Sugar (dark) Generic 1.046 60
3.8 0.50 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
7.6 1.00 lbs. CaraMunich Malt Belgium 1.033 75
17.1 2.25 lbs. Date Syrup Israel 1.035 60
1.0 0.13 lbs. Carafa Chocolate Malt Germany 1.030 525
5.7 0.75 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.75 oz. Styrian Goldings Pellet 5.25 19.5 75 min.
0.75 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 4.00 4.7 20 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 4.00 1.6 5 min.
Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP500 Trappist Ale
Thanks guys, these forums have been super helpful so far!
