Beers ending up too dry and alcohol bite in aftertaste

[imperial]

I'm noticing a pattern in my brews with my beers ending up too dry (at least for my taste). I'm also noticing a strong alcohol bite in some of them. The beer I'll describe below has both of these characteristics.

Imperial Stout with Chocolate & Vanilla

5gal

Grain bill
19# Maris Otter
7.5oz Black Patent
7.5oz Roasted Barley
1# Crystal 135-160
1# Crystal 40

Mash 151F for 1hr

I should also note that I recirculate during my mashes. I've found this helps with efficiency (I hit 90% on this batch). I probably recirc the wort through about 5-7 times during the mash.

6oz cocoa powder at flameout

OG 1.102
FG 1.028
AA 73%
ABV 9.7%

Ferment temp 64F
In primary for 1 week
In secondary for two weeks where I added the beans from two vanilla beans and 2oz cocoa nibs

I then bottled with 4oz corn sugar and 1.5g US-05 yeast.

This bear is not yet carbonated well (there is some carbonation, but not a ton). I bottled it 4 weeks ago. I'm not concerned about the carbonation, but this may effect the tasted.


So that's the beer. It tastes pretty dry (much dryer than I would expect with a 1.028 FG). It also has a pretty noticeable alcohol bite in the aftertaste.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[Revvy]

Well if it's not totally carbed yet, than it is also pretty green, hence the alcohol bite. And same with the dryness, it's kinda hard to judge that til you have the full mouth feel that you'd get with fully carbed and conditioned beer.

You know, you're talking about an imperial stout here, man I wouldn't even be cracking one for at least 3 if not 6 months. You're talking an og of 1.102, my 1.090 Belgian strong wasn't carbed for 3 months and didn't even lose that rocket fuel taste for another 6.

Lazy Llama says it best....better than me I think.

Read this- Of Patience and Bottle Conditioning. With emphasis on the wort,
Patience."

 

[imperial]

Ha ha. I've seen that picture before. It's a good reminder

 

[cheezydemon3]

Enough said.

 

[Adam78K]

With stout and other stuff your mashing temperature at 151 might have to do with it. Mash at a higher temperature like 155 or you can add some unfermentables like specialty malts, honey malt is a good one.

 

[Frank99]

9.7% ABV ? Yeah, you need to let that sucker sit and condition longer. I also agree with mashing at a little bit higher temp.

 

[wildwest450]

Good god, this beer should still be in the primary, one week? Seriously.

 

[imperial]

Why keep it in the primary? My ferments last about 5-6 days. Once I've hit the attenuation I'm targeting I rack it. Then I let it sit for two weeks in the secondary for dry hopping (or in this case, nibs and vanilla). After that, does it matter if it's in a fermenter or in a bottle?

 

[Yooper]

Why keep it in the primary? My ferments last about 5-6 days. Once I've hit the attenuation I'm targeting I rack it. Then I let it sit for two weeks in the secondary for dry hopping (or in this case, nibs and vanilla). After that, does it matter if it's in a fermenter or in a bottle?

Well, not really. My opinion is that beer ages better and more evenly in bulk, and that you'll get far less sediment in the bottle after bulk aging. But if you don't care about sediment, and you can let it age 4-6 months in the bottle, then it doesn't really matter.

I would have probably left that beer in primary for 3 weeks, and then racked to carboy for another few weeks. I'd then add the "flavoring" stuff, and rack off it it to bottles or another carboy.

 

[imperial]

Thanks for the input. I've been wondering about whether it's best to age in the secondary or in the bottle. In my case, it's kind of a logistical thing since my fermenting box holds four buckets and I brew once a week.

 

[Revvy]

Why keep it in the primary? My ferments last about 5-6 days. Once I've hit the attenuation I'm targeting I rack it. Then I let it sit for two weeks in the secondary for dry hopping (or in this case, nibs and vanilla). After that, does it matter if it's in a fermenter or in a bottle?

Because fermenting is only a tiny part of the job the yeast does. They are very fastiguous creatures, and if you let them alone they will clean up the byproducts of fermentation that lead to off flavors, including some of that hot alcohol bite. That's why many of us leave our beers in primary for a month. There's only 10,000 threads discussing that on here. Even Palmer talks about it in how to brew.

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring.

That is the "secondary fermentation stage," but it happens in your primary along with lagtime, and reproductive phase. It is part of the life cycle of the yeast, and it all happens before it is time to move it to a clearing tank, secondary vessel or brite tank, for bulk aging or like you suggested going to bottle.

Palmer says this about it;

The fermentation of malt sugars into beer is a complicated biochemical process. It is more than just the conversion of sugar to alcohol, which can be regarded as the primary activity. Total fermentation is better defined as three phases, the Adaptation or Lagtime phase, the Primary or Attenuative phase and a Secondary or Conditioning phase. The yeast do not end Phase 2 before beginning Phase 3, the processes occur in parallel, but the conditioning processes occur more slowly. As the majority of simple sugars are consumed, more and more of the yeast will transition to eating the larger, more complex sugars and early yeast by-products. This is why beer (and wine) improves with age to a degree, as long as they are on the yeast. Beer that has been filtered or pasteurized will not benefit from aging.

The reactions that take place during the conditioning phase are primarily a function of the yeast. The vigorous primary stage is over, the majority of the wort sugars have been converted to alcohol, and a lot of the yeast cells are going dormant - but some are still active.

The Secondary Phase allows for the slow reduction of the remaining fermentables. The yeast have eaten most all of the easily fermentable sugars and now start to turn their attention elsewhere. The yeast start to work on the heavier sugars like maltotriose. Also, the yeast clean up some of the byproducts they produced during the fast-paced primary phase.

So that's why you don't want to rush it off the yeast....this ain't coolaid you are making here...especially with a beer as big as you made. Don't cheat yourself next time, your beer will thank you for waiting.

 

[imperial]

Thanks for all the info, Revvy!

I do have a couple questions, though (maybe the answers already here in the forums somewhere?) I've been racking my beers after the primary fermentation has completed (completed measured by apparent attenuation) to get them off the trub on the bottom of the fermenter. When I rack, there's still yeast in suspension, is this yeast sufficient for the long stage 3 ferment you're talking about? I.e. can I rack after one week (after primary fermentation) and still have the yeast finish the job of cleaning up byproducts?

Also, I have a similar (well in the same ballpark, at least) Imperial Stout I brewed two months after the one I mentioned in my original post. I'll taste it tonight and compare.

 

[Frank99]

Yeah, 1 week in the primary is not enough. Don't rush the yeast especially with a high gravity brew! What the heck is the big hurry? Let the yeast do their business. Unless you keep it on the yeast for over 1 month you're not going to get any "off flavors." As long as you keep the primary at the appropriate temperature let it sit. In fact, I now routinely gently stir the yeast back into suspension to help them out. My advice: make a 2 liter starter and pitch at high krausen, oxygenate your wort with an oxygen bottle/airstone 45 seconds, and let sit in the primary for at least 14 days. Making beer is like making good barbecue - low and slow...be patient and don't rush things.

 

[imperial]

Okay, I hear you. I just hate to wait. But I do appreciate the advice. I just have to hear it a few times before it sinks in sometimes.

I do 2L and then step to a 6L starter for my big beers. This gives me plenty of yeast and my ferments really do finish after 5-6 days. I guess I was under the impression that because my ferments were so fast, I didn't have to let them sit so long (because I thought that people had to have them sit so long because their yeast was slow because of low pitch rates).

Also, I found an Imperial Stout that I brewed about a year ago (and bottled ~9mo ago). I'll include this in my taste test.

 

[big supper]

So that's why you don't want to rush it off the yeast....this ain't coolaid you are making here...especially with a beer as big as you made. Don't cheat yourself next time, your beer will thank you for waiting.

While I do agree that the OP has rushed things a bit, the secondary phase does not have to happen in the primary. There should be plenty of yeast left in suspension to properly clean up the beer and age it in a 'secondary' fermenter. If the proper attenuation was reached and the beer is finished fermenting, I don't think that there would be a problem transfering it to secondary(where he definately should have left it longer!).

 

[Revvy]

While I do agree that the OP has rushed things a bit, the secondary phase does not have to happen in the primary. There should be plenty of yeast left in suspension to properly clean up the beer and age it in a 'secondary' fermenter. If the proper attenuation was reached and the beer is finished fermenting, I don't think that there would be a problem transfering it to secondary(where he definately should have left it longer!).

Actually there's a million threads discussing this, so we don't need to re-hash it....I don't agree with you. The phase and the secondary fermenter are 2 different things. And oft confused.

And just like you want plenty of yeast when you are fermenting, i.e. making a huge starter, you want plenty of yeast doing the cleanup also.

Besides it's not something you control when it happens, and the yeast don't hold up a sign saying "we're in lag phase" "we're in primary phase," "Ok we're cleaning up now." At some point the yeast stop eating and they start cleaning, it's a part of the cycle that happens when it happens, sometime between fermentation and dormancy. You can't just arbitrarily decide when it is....That's why it's different from moving it to a secondary to clear. If done right that's usually done after the yeast has flocculated.

You can read a good discussion here, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/multiple-questions-about-secondary-fermentation-140978/#post1601829

 

[Tlylebrew]

I did the same thing my first few brews. After you get your pipeline filled you will start to let the beer sit longer. I have 17 gallons of beer sitting in three fermenters right now, one has been in primary about four weeks, the other was in primary for 3 weeks, and has been dry hopping in secondary for about one. The other just finished bubbling yesterday, but I will let it sit there for another two weeks.

 

[Revvy]

I did the same thing my first few brews. After you get your pipeline filled you will start to let the beer sit longer. I have 17 gallons of beer sitting in three fermenters right now, one has been in primary about four weeks, the other was in primary for 3 weeks, and has been dry hopping in secondary for about one. The other just finished bubbling yesterday, but I will let it sit there for another two weeks.

Exactly.

This is my current unbottled pipeline + the 5 gallons of Blonde that I brewed on May first's big brew day.

#1 Grain test Pale Ale 1 (dry toasted) #2 German Apfelwein (hard cider @ 3 months) #3 Grain test Pale Ale 2 (soaked in sugar solution then toasted) # 4 Grain Test Pale Ale 3 (soaked in water then toasted) #5 1-gallon Date Wine #6 Old Ale Brewed on New Years, then oaked for a week and racked to a tertiary to bulk age)

I also have 3 batches I am currently drinking in bottles, and 2 bottles batches that need to age.