Beer slow to start fermentation

[jeremyjudd]

Has anyone noticed or are there any other threads regarding a longer lag between pitching yeast and fermentation start time when they brew from all grain?

I've just started brewing with all grain, but I've noticed with my last two batches that fermentation doesn't start until 18-20 hours after being pitched.

Yeast type hasn't changed, I usually use S-04 for my ales. I rehydrate for an hour prior to pitching.
With extract, I'd usually be awoken in the middle of the night the night after brew day to the lovely sound of a bubbling brew in the closet. (At which point my wife tells me to move the damn thing somewhere else, "it smells like a brewery in here and I can't sleep.").

With all-grain, I'm seeing about 8 hours added to that time, fermentation begins late the next day, and the old "vigor" doesn't seem to be there.

Gravity is still dropping, although more slowly.

Anyway, same results, two batches in a row. I can think of no practical reason why this would be the case, but figured maybe someone else had experienced the same thing.

 

[earwig]

Are you fermenting at the same temperature?

 

[jeremyjudd]

It is true that my temps fluctuate depending on the season. It gets so warm here that in the summer the tap water can be in excess of 80 degrees (I use a wort chiller). I always try to pitch in the low 70's, but in the summer, it's possible I was pitching closer to 80.

But with S-04, the range is 54-74, so in theory, it shouldn't start working until temps fall into that range anyway. Or is that not true?

 

[Revvy]

It doesn't matter whether the beer is AG or extract to the yeasties. Lag time is lagtime regardless. Do you not understand that there is NO DIFFERENCE between AG and Extract?

Beer is beer regardless of how it was made. The only difference between AG and extract brewing is that the first thing ag brewers do is MAKE EXTRACT..that's what the mashing process is....EXTRACTING sugars from grain.

So the yeast doesn't know, nor does it care that it is swimming around in wort that you made or that a maltser made and you boiled....if it's lagging, it is lagging, NOT because it's in an extract or ag wort.

 

[Golddiggie]

I think it's more like how kids get all hopped up on sugar and have tons of energy quickly (when eating processed sugars) but then crash later. Where as if they have something like fruit, or something actually good for you, they have more long term energy (without the hard crash).

The way I see it, I'd rather have a slower fermentation than one that shoots off like a rocket early on. I've noticed that my all grain batches, that are slower to kick off visible fermentation, don't blow foam through the airlock, and ferment for longer, are coming out better than my extract brews did.

Maybe the yeast knows the extra loving you gave the grains when mashing and sparging, so it's being more gentle with your brew... Sort of like how you treat your girlfriend/wife compared with how you'd treat a hooker.

 

[jeremyjudd]

Perhaps the sarcasm that is seeping from your response was unintentional, but it sort of makes you sound like a jackass. Just an FYI.

There are many things I do not know about beer, which is why there is a forum here for asking questions.

I do not know what the process is for making extract, but I know that it comes in powder form whereas all-grain extract is a liquid from start to finish. On a chemical level, it seems very possible that there are subtle differences in the way the two may ferment.

If the answer is no, just say no. The caps aren't necessary.

 

[jeremyjudd]

I think it's more like how kids get all hopped up on sugar and have tons of energy quickly (when eating processed sugars) but then crash later. Where as if they have something like fruit, or something actually good for you, they have more long term energy (without the hard crash).

The way I see it, I'd rather have a slower fermentation than one that shoots off like a rocket early on. I've noticed that my all grain batches, that are slower to kick off visible fermentation, don't blow foam through the airlock, and ferment for longer, are coming out better than my extract brews did.

Maybe the yeast knows the extra loving you gave the grains when mashing and sparging, so it's being more gentle with your brew... Sort of like how you treat your girlfriend/wife compared with how you'd treat a hooker.

Lols. I think I prefer this response...

Fair enough, I'll just go with it. In the end, as long as it hits FG it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[rocketman768]

Your water could be missing nutrients (especially magnesium) that are essential to yeast health. LME and DME contain the nutrients of the water they were originally made with, but doing AG, you only have your own water to count on. Get a water report from your municipality, or get it tested at Ward Labs, or start adding a few teaspoons of yeast nutrient to your beer and see if that helps. Oh, also make sure you are eliminating the chlorine/chloramine from your water with a bit of crushed campden tablet prior to brewing.

 

[jeremyjudd]

Thanks rocketman, that's good advice. I haven't been using campden, and I'm not up to date on what's in the water around here. That may well have something to do with it.

 

[Revvy]

No offense meant. In fact that's an answer I've given on here dozens of time, when this question is asked this way, and noone else has been offended.

Just cut and pasted it from a posting from the other day. But the answer is still the same.

And the caps are for emphasis....

*shrug*

 

[earwig]

EDIT, missed R's second response

 

[Schwind]

I don't think you mentioned if with your new all grain brewing if this is your first time with full boils. I know my first all grain beer was also my first full size boil. It took me 2 or 3 batches to figure out I needed to aerate well.
When wort is boiled it removes a very high percentage if not all of the oxygen. In partial boils you add half your water which is oxygenated.
Once I got an o2 regulator and aerated with pure o2 I had much shorter lag times.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

 

[Beezer94]

Also that recommended range for a particular yeast, say for example 60-72F, does not mean that it cannot work outside that range. It just means for the intended flavors to develop, it is recommended to stay within this range. If it gets to cold, it may go dormant and just hang out on the bottom until the boss turns the heat back on. Also at temperatures above the recommended it will potentially ferment faster, but will also produce more undesirable compounds. That is why there is a recommended range.

 

[sjbeerman]

I've had the opposite experience by going AG. I've only done two AG batches so far and both started in 5 h or less. However, I attribute that to making yeast starters, which I didn't do before. When I think of long lag time, I think of yeast cell counts and the health of the yeast. During the initial phase, the yeast are building up their cell counts. The lower the cell count at pitching time, the longer the lag time. So when you hear people on HBT talk about short lag times, it's because they pitched enough cells so the yeast have much less work to do before processing the sugars. A good point mentioned by Schwind is that yeast need oxygen. If you are now doing full boils with AG that you didn't do before, all the oxygen is boiled off and becomes even more critical to get oxygen back in. I would also make sure you are pitching enough yeast and also add some yeast nutrient to your rehydration solution.

BTW, there is a good book by Chris White and Jamil Z. called "Yeast." I highly recommend this book and I would easily rank this book up there with "How to Brew" by Palmer.

 

[g-star]

It doesn't matter whether the beer is AG or extract to the yeasties. Lag time is lagtime regardless. Do you not understand that there is NO DIFFERENCE between AG and Extract?

Disagree wholeheartedly on this one, especially for new AG brewers.

We don't know the conditions under which the extract manufacturer mashed the grains to obtain the extract...though probably in the 148-150F range to obtain the maximum amount of fermentables.

A new AG brewer may mash at much higher temps, intentionally or unintenionally. So he/she may end up with a much more unfermentable wort relative to that extract. So lag time could in fact be related to the switch from extract to AG, if the AG wort has a significantly higher % of unfermentable sugars.

 

[Beezer94]

The biggest factor here though is fermenting at 80F in the summer vs 60'sF now in the winter for the OP. That would definitely have a huge impact.

A couple hours difference in lag either way should not cause any issues, as the final product will show. The temps of fermentation will change the flavors and will have a real impact on the final product.

 

[jeremyjudd]

This has been really interesting to read all of your responses.

In regard to Schwind's comment about full boils- I've been doing full boils since the beginning, so no change there.

Good points about oxygen and yeast, that one had not occurred to me.

I don't hydrate my yeast to the extent that a lot of folks in this forum have. Generally, I just do go by the manufacturers instructions, with the exception of S-04. It says to sprinkle, I usually hydrate for an hour before pitching. This probably also has something to do with it.

I'll look up the book mentioned about yeast. Thanks all. This really helps me understand what's going on here.

I'm enjoying going all-grain, and it's also saving me $5-$10 per brew.