brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
I want to start a beer recipe website. What would be the best way of gathering recipes properly?
Beer recipe etiquette
- Thread starter brewtasting
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Ask people for recipes. That's the only really ethical way, unless it's already been made public.
There are already many web sites (HBT being one) with thousands of recipes available. What do you hope to accomplish with your web site vs. what's already out there?
Also, be aware that just because a recipe is on-line doesn't mean it is public domain. If you intend to scrape recipes from other on-line sites, you risk running afoul of copyright laws, which can turn out to be an expensive mistake. You might want to seek legal advice if you intend to do any scraping.
Brew on
Also, be aware that just because a recipe is on-line doesn't mean it is public domain. If you intend to scrape recipes from other on-line sites, you risk running afoul of copyright laws, which can turn out to be an expensive mistake. You might want to seek legal advice if you intend to do any scraping.
Brew on
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
I agree/disagree with Doug293cz above. Why do you want to create a recipe website? There are already plenty in existence and many books on the subject (which presumably have been registered in the US copyright office, see below)
The part I disagree with is about the copyright issue. Just because a recipe is online, doesn't mean its an original work that can be copyrighted. The US copyright office website says that recipes can't be copyrighted:
https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html
However any description of HOW TO BREW the recipe could be considered an original work and theoretically could be copyrighted.
The recipe/process in question has to be registered with the US copyright office in order to bring a lawsuit for damages. The plaintiff also has to prove how they were damaged by the infringement of the copyright. All this legal work can be very expensive and time consuming with no real guarantee that anything positive will occur.
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
The part I disagree with is about the copyright issue. Just because a recipe is online, doesn't mean its an original work that can be copyrighted. The US copyright office website says that recipes can't be copyrighted:
https://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html
However any description of HOW TO BREW the recipe could be considered an original work and theoretically could be copyrighted.
The recipe/process in question has to be registered with the US copyright office in order to bring a lawsuit for damages. The plaintiff also has to prove how they were damaged by the infringement of the copyright. All this legal work can be very expensive and time consuming with no real guarantee that anything positive will occur.
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html
Link to the original recipe, or cite the source. You don't really need permission because recipes are not copyrightable. But be careful if the "directions" part of the recipe has a lot more than just directions in it -- that can be copyrighted.
I don't know why you want to do this, but IMHO the value you can add is testing the recipes and curating them. The Internet is full of untested recipes, some good and some awful.
It's not copyrighted- but someone took a recipe I posted on here (so totally available for all), and posted it as his own on a different recipe site.
He even posted my tasting notes, word for word.
While copying exactly may be plagiarism, that wasn't my gripe at all. And it might not be illegal, but posting something as their own from this site (which has something like 200,000+ registered members) really irritated me. I think that was a dick move for sure. Just ask- I've never said no. But to just take it was definitely something that bothered me.
If you want a repository of recipes (although I don't know why, when there are thousands and thousands already out there), I do suggesting asking before posting them as your own.
He even posted my tasting notes, word for word.
While copying exactly may be plagiarism, that wasn't my gripe at all. And it might not be illegal, but posting something as their own from this site (which has something like 200,000+ registered members) really irritated me. I think that was a dick move for sure. Just ask- I've never said no. But to just take it was definitely something that bothered me.
If you want a repository of recipes (although I don't know why, when there are thousands and thousands already out there), I do suggesting asking before posting them as your own.
There's legal, and then there are ethics.
I would hold the latter most dear wrt using others work without explicit permission...
Cheers!
I would hold the latter most dear wrt using others work without explicit permission...
Cheers!
triethylborane
Well-Known Member
AKA trade secret. This is why Coca Cola does what it does to keep its recipe a secret. There is no legal protection granted by the government for such things. Great reply.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
I realize there are plenty of recipe websites. I wanted to create another site since I have a good domain and the skills to build a good site. I like what z-bob said about curating some recipes. I don't want a massive database of recipes. I also have some original recipes to add also. After reading the thread I will contact a brewer and request permission and cite the brewer. I do have a bit of a concern of requesting permission and later finding out that someone else claims that as their recipe. It would be hard to avoid that issue unless the recipe/brewer were well known. I just want to cover my basses and make sure I do this the right way.
As noted above, there are craploads of recipes posted online on numerous websites. What is missing the most is "tried and true" recipes that make good beer... many posed recipes are just someone's random idea with no actual execution or assurance that they turn out. "Curating" could make the difference. Do you have any credibility as a brewer or taster?
If he had just cited you as the source instead of claiming it himself, I assume you would have been cool with it?
BTW, you retain copyright to the tasting notes, etc (whether registered or not) because that is original content that you created. If you wanted to be a dick about it, you could file a DMCA complaint to his hosting site.
<-- closest thing to a "dick" smilie I can find here.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
That seems the best direction to go in. And I have a few ideas to hopefully spice that up. I believe I have credibility. That's also subjective.
You don't
triethylborane
Well-Known Member
Hence subjectivity, which you omitted from the quote.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
Like I said we all have a different perception
Like I said we all have a different perception
We don't. We have one of two opinions.
We all either
a/ view you and/or your website as a credible resource
b/ view you and/or your website as a less than credible resource
I have yet to encounter any credible resource for beer recipes online or elsewhere. Typically they are made up of rehashed garbage.
As an example of lack of credibility.
Your brief post history on HBT and avatar (an under-fillered secondary vessel with massive oxygenating headspace) are consistent with someone to which a healthy air of skepticism WRT brewing expertise and recipe assessment abilities should be exercised.
I do not wish you or your venture any malice. I simply see the objective as 100% redundant in an already existing ocean of redundancy. If you can generate clickbait income from it, more power to you.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
You speak for "we". You come of as a condescending dick.
Unfortunately (rightly or wrongly) your click market will be made of of folks who fall into the following groups WRT to your website's content
a/ condesend ...
b/ do not condesend ...
c/ are unfamiliar with richard
Like I said. I wish you every success.
He's harsh, but he has a point. You have no credibility yet (I'm not sure that I do either) so the value you add by curating is questionable.
But if you want to do it, go for it. Prove him wrong.
But if you want to do it, go for it. Prove him wrong.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
fwiw, it's "condescend".
And I'm making popcorn
And I'm making popcorn
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
He's harsh, but he has a point. You have no credibility yet (I'm not sure that I do either) so the value you add by curating is questionable.
But if you want to do it, go for it. Prove him wrong.
I'm going for it. But not to prove anyone wrong. I appreciate the advice (especially tactful advice)
fwiw, it's "condescend".
And I'm making popcorn
You certainly do like your popcorn. That much is clear. Easy on the butter now. Greasy fingers can play havoc with one's con·de·scen·sion (made sure to seamlessly copy from wikilexia. No one will be any the wiser)
Good for you man/ma'am
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
fwiw, it's "condescend".
And I'm making popcorn
Popcorn is not needed...no more feeding the troll
Killshakes
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 18, 2017
- Messages
- 69
- Reaction score
- 16
I was going to post this as well.
I agree that it is hard to sift through most recipe resources. In particular, I think the biggest flaw in recipe resources is that they just list ingredients most of the time - as if that is what made a great beer. Process is so much of the outcome that if the recipe is not listing water considerations and other specific process considerations, volumes, efficiencies, etc - it can border on useless in recreating a good beer.
I have noticed this additional detail is being provided in recipes more often over the last couple years - especially in regard to water considerations.
As far as a "credible" resource - I generally use the site below if I am looking to get a basic foundation for a recipe. This is about as "credible" as it gets - and even this site is lacking in a lot of ways:
http://www.alternativecommutepueblo.com/2011/10/ahanhc-gold-medal-winning-recipes-for.html
Beyond all of that - I think if you want to put something together it should include detail, process, water considerations, etc. And, should include contact/input/permission from the person who's recipe you are using..... not so much for "legal" reasons as much as simple decency.
oceanic_brew
Well-Known Member
I think you should hunt down the creator of some tried and true recipes and do an interview with each one.
Make the recipe more about it being a result of a person culture/environment/etc.
This I would be interested in and that's what people buy up these days.
Cooking books are sold on the personality of the chef or the culture where the food comes from.
Or even break up the sections by homebrew club (HBT,AHA) or by region.
Just ideas here, good luck.
Make the recipe more about it being a result of a person culture/environment/etc.
This I would be interested in and that's what people buy up these days.
Cooking books are sold on the personality of the chef or the culture where the food comes from.
Or even break up the sections by homebrew club (HBT,AHA) or by region.
Just ideas here, good luck.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
Beyond all of that - I think if you want to put something together it should include detail, process, water considerations, etc. And, should include contact/input/permission from the person who's recipe you are using..... not so much for "legal" reasons as much as simple decency.
I totally agree with what you have said.
OP
OP
brewtasting
Active Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2016
- Messages
- 40
- Reaction score
- 5
Great ideas. And I have access to a few local home brew clubs. Plus I know the owners of at least a few breweries that I have business dealings with. I think I can start from this local pool. And they are a great bunch of people to boot.
I think this is an awesome idea. For example, I have a milk stout recipe that if you just read the recipe, it looks like a bit of a complicated mess. But everyone who has tasted it loves it, everyone who has brewed it loves it, and when I created it, I had reasons for including exactly what I included. Having a site which included the recipe but ALSO included notes from the brewer about why specific choices were made is important.
Well, that depends. You'll notice that EVERY page in this forum has a copyright of homebrewtalk.com at the bottom of it. You don't get copyright JUST because it's your original content. Original content that you post on this forum is owned by Homebrewtalk.com.
If you create original content on your own web site, you own that copyright. But generally it would cause all sorts of legal issues for an online forum to grant copyright to every individual user. So HBT owns everything posted here, even if it's your content.
I think whether it's a worthwhile venture or not depends on the intent, and I guess (speaking for myself) I haven't gleaned that from the info provided. One of the guys in the club I'm in is suggesting something similar, but it's more for sharing within the group and having a more interactive experience with it. Something like:
"Hey, I plan on brewing this, let me know what you think and let's tweak it and work towards a final product."
-or-
"Hey, here's the recipe from that beer I made that you guys said you liked. On file, hit me with questions."
Something like a personal touch aspect. When others talk about credibility, I think that factors in more when you're just curating recipes and throwing them out into the ether for faceless strangers to view.
"Hey, I plan on brewing this, let me know what you think and let's tweak it and work towards a final product."
-or-
"Hey, here's the recipe from that beer I made that you guys said you liked. On file, hit me with questions."
Something like a personal touch aspect. When others talk about credibility, I think that factors in more when you're just curating recipes and throwing them out into the ether for faceless strangers to view.
I'm pretty sure I own all the content I create here, and HBT has unlimited rights or license to use it. HBT has a copyright on the aggregate content, the layout, etc. (not sure that it matters)
Well, you might be right on that. I just went to the HBT sign up page and tried to click on the link to the TOS for the site, and got a 404 error.
So it's entirely possible that there were NO terms of service that we actually agreed to when we signed up. I guess anything goes!
Looking around Google, it looks like as the author, you do not surrender copyright to the work. But based upon the TOS, you may have granted HBT unlimited rights to basically do ANYTHING they want with it. I.e. if they wanted to take all of your posts and compile them into a book, sell it on Amazon, you've probably given them that right to your content. Because their TOS will most likely state (to protect them from ever having to fight over copyright) that anything you post here grants them permanent license to use it however they see fit. Writing their TOS in any other way could cause them many, many headaches.
One more thing... Searching around, some TOS actually don't limit republishing of forum content to only the original author and the site itself. Depending on that, we may have granted (by posting it here) anyone in the world the right to republish our recipes, tasting notes, etc. In that case, things posted on HBT may have basically been granted to public domain.
It's all about the TOS. I'm not sure what HBT's TOS actually says, however, since I got that 404 error.
It's all about the TOS. I'm not sure what HBT's TOS actually says, however, since I got that 404 error.
TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
Copyright in the US is automatically assigned to the author when it is created. HBT does not own all of the posts here, the author of the posts do. Everyone may have agreed to let HBT use these posts without permission and royalty free, but the site does not own the posts. I believe that the copyright laws of the country the server is hosted in are the ones that apply.
Back to the topic the more detailed the recipe the better. Make sure to include the efficiency of the system the recipe is using. Include a water profile, fermentation temps/time, use grain percentages rather then weight amounts. That is all important information in trying to replicate a recipe.
Back to the topic the more detailed the recipe the better. Make sure to include the efficiency of the system the recipe is using. Include a water profile, fermentation temps/time, use grain percentages rather then weight amounts. That is all important information in trying to replicate a recipe.
TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that is true. ToS does not override Federal law...
Yes, and I think that's where I might have been mistaken. I.e. if I post something here it doesn't grant HBT copyright... I.e. they have NO power to tell me that the content I posted here cannot be simultaneously posted [by me] to another forum or to my blog.
So you are right, ToS can't force me to give up my copyright.
However, ToS can be written in such a way as to grant a permanent license to HBT to use that content in any way they like, free, and without requiring any further permission from me.
So while you don't lose copyright, you can definitely lose control over how your content is used when you post to a forum.
Similar threads
