Beer Judge Question

[andysim]

I entered a American brown ale in a beer competition. I didn't brew the beer for the competition, I just decided to enter it after I brewed it.

I thought the beer would probably get a score of 31-33 before I entered it.

Judge #1 scored it a 31, the biggest issue being that the beer was too sweet. (which it was). I agreed with judge #1 score sheet just about 100%.

Judge #2 marked me down on the aroma of the beer because it "completely lacks American citrus hop aroma" and also the flavor "lack American hops"

Also overall impression "lacks hop flavor"

Score was 28 from Judge #2.

According to BJCP style guide, American browns are supposed to have low to moderate hop aroma and flavor.

Also, American citrus hop flavor and aroma are optional.

I was floored that a judge didn't know the style characteristics of this type of beer. The guides lines are available on a smart phone.

Should I inform the judge that he was wrong regarding the hops or just let it slide?

 

[treacheroustexan]

I entered a American brown ale in a beer competition. I didn't brew the beer for the competition, I just decided to enter it after I brewed it.

I thought the beer would probably get a score of 31-33 before I entered it.

Judge #1 scored it a 31, the biggest issue being that the beer was too sweet. (which it was). I agreed with judge #1 score sheet just about 100%.

Judge #2 marked me down on the aroma of the beer because it "completely lacks American citrus hop aroma" and also the flavor "lack American hops"

Also overall impression "lacks hop flavor"

Score was 28 from Judge #2.

According to BJCP style guide, American browns are supposed to have low to moderate hop aroma and flavor.

Also, American citrus hop flavor and aroma are optional.

I was floored that a judge didn't know the style characteristics of this type of beer. The guides lines are available on a smart phone.

Should I inform the judge that he was wrong regarding the hops or just let it slide?

Definitely contact him/her. Take advantage of them putting their email on there

 

[dmtaylor]

After a long hiatus from competitions (I've entered a lot years ago), I just entered 3 comps recently, with scores all over the board for the same beers. One of my beers got a 45 and 2nd Best of Show from one competition, and scores of 24 and 26 from another competition. The 45 was from a Master level judge, so I tend to agree with him more than the others.

My conclusion based on my recent experience is, 75% of BJCP judges are morons.

Gosh... I myself am BJCP Certified, so I hope I'm not in the 75%.

But seriously, though. Seriously. Don't ever take one guy's word for anything. Enter three competitions for every beer, then throw out the ones where the judge is obviously a moron. You'll throw away approximately 75% of your scoresheets that way, yet still end up with an ounce of useful suggestions for the next brew session. Otherwise it's a crapshoot every time. If I contacted a judge everytime they screwed up, I'd be pissing off a whole lot of judges. And they won't listen anyway. They'll assume the entrant is the moron. They won't listen.

Expecting "creaminess" in my cream ale..... come on......... nowhere on the entire ****ing guideline for cream ale does it say the word "creamy". Nowhere.

 

[iijakii]

Hah, what a bunch of morans. Bet they're all BA posters and write 4 page reviews on a beers aroma, going to the Sherwin Williams page to really nail down that color description. The beer isn't a nice golden color, it's Cancun Summer Beach Sunrise™ with a Winter High Mountain Frost™ beautifully lacing head that really reminisces of your first Christmas.

 

[m00ps]

I feel ya. I entered an 100% Brett IPA and they were like, "why isnt it funky? minus eleventy points"

and Im pretty sure not a single one of the judges had a palate for sour beer, shouldve never wasted my last few precious bottles of my best one to date on those clueless bastards...

 

[andysim]

What really baffled me was the expectation of a bunch of hops for a brown ale. To me this is a basic beer style that everyone has probably had and most of them are not hoppy and most of them surely don't have a citrus type hop in them.

I don't recall ever having a brown ale with the citrus type hop in it.

I just can't imagine why the judge didn't question him himself when he wrote down that it was lacking the American citrus hop.

 

[srob18]

What really baffled me was the expectation of a bunch of hops for a brown ale. To me this is a basic beer style that everyone has probably had and most of them are not hoppy and most of them surely don't have a citrus type hop in them.

I don't recall ever having a brown ale with the citrus type hop in it.

I just can't imagine why the judge didn't question him himself when he wrote down that it was lacking the American citrus hop.

The Citrus hop thing is confusing. Normally those hops scream to me Pale Ale or IPA, not brown ale. I wonder if he confuses APA with Brown Ale

 

[dmtaylor]

Well don't you know, in America, EVERY style needs to contain citrus hops!?!?

 

[IslandLizard]

The other beers in the flight may have knocked yours out of the ballpark. That doesn't mean yours was not to style, which is really what it should be judged upon, or not better than the others. A few more assertive browns may skew the palate of less experienced judges. Don't forget, there's large amount of subjectivity involved, and only very few judges can distance themselves from that.

What hops did you use, and how much? How old was that bottle before it was judged? Hops fade with time.

A note to all, whoever fits the shoe, calling beer judges "morons" is a bit out of line. If you think you can do better, please go for it! We need you!

 

[andysim]

IslandLizard

My point was the judge didn't know the style, not the score of my beer.

Citrus hops are optional. Hop flavor and aroma are low to moderate for an American brown.

 

[andysim]

The Citrus hop thing is confusing. Normally those hops scream to me Pale Ale or IPA, not brown ale. I wonder if he confuses APA with Brown Ale

It's written in the guidelines that American citrus hops are optional?

How many Browns have a citrus hop flavor?

 

[andysim]

The Citrus hop thing is confusing. Normally those hops scream to me Pale Ale or IPA, not brown ale. I wonder if he confuses APA with Brown Ale

It's written in the guidelines that American citrus hops are optional.

How many Browns have a citrus hop flavor?

 

[andysim]

The Citrus hop thing is confusing. Normally those hops scream to me Pale Ale or IPA, not brown ale. I wonder if he confuses APA with Brown Ale

It's written in the guidelines that American citrus hops are optional.

How many Browns have a citrus hop flavor?

 

[IslandLizard]

IslandLizard

My point was the judge didn't know the style, not the score of my beer.

Citrus hops are optional. Hop flavor and aroma are low to moderate for an American brown.

I don't know, he may be a novice judge. These style names and guidelines can be confusing at times. Why brew an American Brown and use Fuggles? Just an example. But I get your point. I was actually referring to the "overall impression" comments of lacking hop flavor, and his impressions can be explained if there were a few "high hop test" American Browns in the flight.

What I find calming is that both your scores are within 3 points, not a big difference. A (National) judge scored one of my Witbiers at 40 while the other gave out 37. The higher points were from the higher ranked judge. Scoring subtleties in a style takes years of experience, and then some. Now if you'd scored 42 with one and 35 with the other, it's more questionable.

 

[andysim]

I wonder if he knocked points off for every beer without citrus hops

 

[BigJack]

I don't like entering competitions for this very reason. You never know if you are going to get legit feedback so you can improve your beer or if some random asshat is going to leave stupid comments.

Honestly, when I want feedback, I give my beer to homebrewers I know personally, who I can discuss the recipe and process with in full, and who are willing to be brutally honest on flaws they taste without talking down to me or making me feel like an idiot.

In other words, I turn to my local homebrew club.

 

[madcowbrewing]

I wonder if he crossed it with a Brown IPA in the 2015 guidelines....where it does say the citrus notes are optional, too many people may think it is not..
Aroma: Moderate malty-sweet to malty-rich aroma with
chocolate, caramel, nutty, and/or toasty qualities. Hop aroma
is typically low to moderate, of almost any variety that
complements the malt. Some interpretations of the style may
feature a stronger hop aroma, an American or New World hop
character (citrusy, fruity, tropical, etc.), and/or a fresh dry hopped
aroma (all are optional). Fruity esters are moderate to
very low. The dark malt character is more robust than other
brown ales, yet stops short of being overly porter-like. The malt
and hops are generally balanced.

 

[andysim]

I wonder if he crossed it with a Brown IPA in the 2015 guidelines....where it does say the citrus notes are optional, too many people may think it is not..
Aroma: Moderate malty-sweet to malty-rich aroma with
chocolate, caramel, nutty, and/or toasty qualities. Hop aroma
is typically low to moderate, of almost any variety that
complements the malt. Some interpretations of the style may
feature a stronger hop aroma, an American or New World hop
character (citrusy, fruity, tropical, etc.), and/or a fresh dry hopped
aroma (all are optional). Fruity esters are moderate to
very low. The dark malt character is more robust than other
brown ales, yet stops short of being overly porter-like. The malt
and hops are generally balanced.

The red type

 

[Oginme]

I have received judging sheets back from competitions very similar to what the OP encountered. In one competition this year on a Vienna lager one sheet had "nice clean fermentation" and the other said "estery profile, most likely from yeast". I shrug and open a bottle of the beer in question and try to figure out which judge was whacked and which one got it right.

The last American Brown I entered had similar feedback of "lack American hop aroma" as a negative. It was also the fifth judged in a flight of six browns, which may have influenced judging as well. In the end, I filter out the sheets that don't make sense to me and focus on those that offer comments and critique that fits with what I smell and taste...

 

[madcowbrewing]

correct, that is why I bolded it out. I try not to think to heavy on the judges I sincerely disagree with. My time and emotions are worth too much for that. If you truly are upset about it, then I would send a nice email to the judge to start a conversation about it. Again, they do volunteer their time, but this judge just might have had a predetermined opinion or thinking of a different style. I am wondering if the two judges discussed it together as they should have. That might have cleared up some things.

CHEERS!

 

[andysim]

correct, that is why I bolded it out. I try not to think to heavy on the judges I sincerely disagree with. My time and emotions are worth too much for that. If you truly are upset about it, then I would send a nice email to the judge to start a conversation about it. Again, they do volunteer their time, but this judge just might have had a predetermined opinion or thinking of a different style. I am wondering if the two judges discussed it together as they should have. That might have cleared up some things.

CHEERS!

I'm not upset about. It just seems like ridiculous error.

 

[Yooper]

What really baffled me was the expectation of a bunch of hops for a brown ale. To me this is a basic beer style that everyone has probably had and most of them are not hoppy and most of them surely don't have a citrus type hop in them.

I don't recall ever having a brown ale with the citrus type hop in it.

I just can't imagine why the judge didn't question him himself when he wrote down that it was lacking the American citrus hop.

It's written in the guidelines that American citrus hops are optional?

How many Browns have a citrus hop flavor?

American browns may have "low" to "moderate" hops aroma, but most have moderate and American hops tend to be citrusy, or at least fruity.

I'm a BJCP judge, and while none of us are perfect, we are looking for "American hops flavor and aroma" in American brown, and if the hops flavor and aroma are barely present, it would probably be called "low" and not "absent", but in the flight where there are lots of others that have moderate hop aroma and flavor, it probably just seemed to be lacking a bit.

I can't really think of too many popular American flavor and aroma hops that aren't at least a little citrusy, and maybe the judge was thinking that all of them are citrusy? Still, he was only 3 points away from the other judge so I'd say it's a valid score.

 

[aprichman]

I agree with Yooper, my interpretation of the judges comments is that your brown ale did not have an appropriate level of American hop character on the nose or the palate. If your beer was sweet it would need an even more assertive hop presence.

In my opinion it's not very good etiquette to email a judge complaining about your score. Most judges will have a copy of the BJCP style guidelines available while scoring a flight. You should try to take constructive criticism from it. For instance it seems like your recipe either lacks American hops or your technique is driving down the beers hops character.

 

[treacheroustexan]

I agree with Yooper, my interpretation of the judges comments is that your brown ale did not have an appropriate level of American hop character on the nose or the palate. If your beer was sweet it would need an even more assertive hop presence.

In my opinion it's not very good etiquette to email a judge complaining about your score. Most judges will have a copy of the BJCP style guidelines available while scoring a flight. You should try to take constructive criticism from it. For instance it seems like your recipe either lacks American hops or your technique is driving down the beers hops character.

He stated in a previous post that he wasn't upset about the score. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to email the judge who gave you feedback and at least ask for clarification, not really a complaint.

 

[bob1852]

He stated in a previous post that he wasn't upset about the score. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to email the judge who gave you feedback and at least ask for clarification, not really a complaint.

What clarification would you expect from a judge who had judged a dozen or so beers weeks ago?

 

[schematix]

He stated in a previous post that he wasn't upset about the score. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to email the judge who gave you feedback and at least ask for clarification, not really a complaint.

Sounds like he's lodging a complaint to me. Yooper gave a good explanation.

It would not be constructive to ask "why didn't you score my beer higher", but rather "when you score a <style> beer, what qualities do you look for?"

 

[treacheroustexan]

What clarification would you expect from a judge who had judged a dozen or so beers weeks ago?

I see no harm in asking the judge exactly what the OP posted. I'm not saying he has to remember the beer, but if the OP is curious and truly wants to use the feedback to better his beer, I don't see why it would be a big deal to email the judge and ask. And I'm not saying to email the judge and ask why his score was lower. Once again, it was already made clear many posts ago that the score is not the issue.

 

[bob1852]

I see no harm in asking the judge exactly what the OP posted. I'm not saying he has to remember the beer, but if the OP is curious and truly wants to use the feedback to better his beer, I don't see why it would be a big deal to email the judge and ask.

The judge stated everything he needs to know. He's just choosing not to accept it....

The judge stated that it lacked an American citrus hop presence (which is certainly in line with the style guidelines).

 

[aprichman]

I'm not sure what kind of clarification someone would be expecting. Like AZ_IPA said judges are often tasting 20+ beers over multiple days.

 

[aprichman]

I see no harm in asking the judge exactly what the OP posted. I'm not saying he has to remember the beer, but if the OP is curious and truly wants to use the feedback to better his beer, I don't see why it would be a big deal to email the judge and ask. And I'm not saying to email the judge and ask why his score was lower. Once again, it was already made clear many posts ago that the score is not the issue.

IMO what the OP should be taking away from the judges is that the beer didn't have adequate American hop flavor or aroma.

 

[treacheroustexan]

I'm not sure what kind of clarification someone would be expecting. Like AZ_IPA said judges are often tasting 20+ beers over multiple days.

I guess the point I'm getting at, is yes an american brown ale may have a citrusy hop character. But is it really "lacking" if the brewer didn't want it to and is considered optional in the style guidelines?

 

[bob1852]

IMO what the OP should be taking away from the judges is that the beer didn't have adequate American hop flavor or aroma.

And should've been entered as a porter.

 

[30_Ounce]

Judging is not easy! Calling any judge a moron because you don't agree with his comments is unacceptable. He is trying to give you feedback that compared to the other example in that flight yours lacked the hop aromas he was expecting. I've judged several competitions and your scores are not bad. The bottom line is you are competing against all the other American Browns in that flight and someone brewed a more "classic" example than you did. If you had a score in the 20's or less then we need to talk...

 

[andysim]

Once again, don't care about the score.

I care about the beers (mine and others) being judged correctly.

Maybe I'm wrong, but citrus and/or American hops are not a mandatory criteria for an American Brown Ale according to the BJCP 2008 or BJCP 2015 style guide lines. (BJCP 2008 states that American, UK, or noble hops may be used. BJCP 2015 states that any hop may be used)

Is it an error on the judges part to say that an American Brown Ale should have citrus hops or American hops?

The criteria clearly states that any is hop is acceptable.

Beer judging is difficult, but if you don't know what is supposed to be in the beer (the objective part of judging), you can't know what the beer is supposed to taste and smell like (the subjective part of judging).



According to the feed back I received, this judge thinks that citrus and/or American hops are a mandatory ingredient of the American Brown Ale.

Last time, don't care about the score and get that this judge wanted more hops.

I care about all beers get judged correctly.

 

[andysim]

I agree with Yooper, my interpretation of the judges comments is that your brown ale did not have an appropriate level of American hop character on the nose or the palate. If your beer was sweet it would need an even more assertive hop presence.

In my opinion it's not very good etiquette to email a judge complaining about your score. Most judges will have a copy of the BJCP style guidelines available while scoring a flight. You should try to take constructive criticism from it. For instance it seems like your recipe either lacks American hops or your technique is driving down the beers hops character.

Don't care about the score.

American hops or citrus hops are not a mandatory criteria.

Should the judge just go judging beers incorrectly?

 

[dmtaylor]

As I've alluded to previously, we can try to fix stupid, but success rate is very limited.

Throw that sheet in the trash and forget it happened. Enter more comps, or don't. We can't make a hill of beans difference in the quality of judging, it just is what it is, and the BJCP won't correct the problem either. Is what it is.

 

[andysim]

As I've alluded to previously, we can try to fix stupid, but success rate is very limited.

Throw that sheet in the trash and forget it happened. Enter more comps, or don't. We can't make a hill of beans difference in the quality of judging, it just is what it is, and the BJCP won't correct the problem either. Is what it is.

I don't think he is stupid, I think he misread the guide lines.

My original question was should I tell him he misread the guide lines or let him think that only American citrus hops are to be used.

The 2015 BJCP guide lines let you use any hop that is appropriate for the malt profile.

I will more hops in the beer next time.

 

[espyusmc]

A couple things to consider.

1) Beer judging is largely subjective. The style guidelines are a great description of the variations that can encompass a style. That being said, beer judge sensory thresholds are all different and their ability to pickup on subtle differences varies according to experience.

2) Most competitions I've judged at typically have one experienced judge (maybe not BJCP ranked) and one new guy/gal. They are looking to gain valuable experience evaluating beers and may not know the range that can fit a particular style. Depending on the size of the competition, the BJCP judge might not have time to train the new judge. It's a quick discussion on what you tasted and how it fit the style and its current position in the flight.

3) All judges are volunteering their day / weekend to evaluate beer. They're getting valuable experience, but again it is on a volunteer basis. Please respect their time spent with your beer. You may not agree with their sheet, but it's not personal. Trust me, they are doing the best they can and honestly trying to find the best brew in the flight.

4) I have received one email a couple years ago about a stylistic concern and welcomed the dialogue. I guarantee the judge would love to talk about beer. Probably not about scores differences since they probably won't remember the exact brew.

My two cents...well four.

 

[Gavin C]

I think when entering a competition one should expect to receive pointers and criticisms that does not gel with your own view.

Interpretation of flavors or in this case the judges interpretation of the guidelines. I suspect it is ofetn the case that judges will compare beers in a given flight and make notes reflective of that.

But I do see your point OP, I don't interpret it in the same exact way.

I have only recently started entering competitions. I entered 1 particular beer in two different competitions. It was judged by 2 BJCP judges in each and scored 44,43 in one and 29,29 in the other. I was puzzled to say the least and even (quite arrogantly and fleetingly) thought to myself "they must have mixed up the beer with another entrant" such was the difference in description of the beer.

My point is that I will continue to enter beers, look at any trends that indicate areas to improve upon, pat myself on the back and lick my wounds as needed. I don't think there is any value in emailing a judge. I think it's bad form to be honest. The beer was judged notes written and rapidly forgotten about.

The interpretation of the style by the judge and putting it in writing may not always be the clearest. The thrust of the point is clear though. The beer was not as good an example of an American Brown as others in the flight, next time, up the character of the American hop if you hope to score higher. That's how I see it, rightly or wrongly, what the judge was trying to convey.

As a side note, given the time, effort and financial comittment that goes into becoming BJCP certified, I think a modicum of respect for the judges is warranted and think some of the remarks (by others not the OP) in the thread could have done with some self-editing.

Best of luck to you in future competitions.

 

[m00ps]

Wow....this really kept on rolling. I don't think anyone that gets qualified as a BJCP judge is a moron by any means....but what about my 100% Brett that got dinged for not being funky? Isnt that a complete disregard for the nuances of the style?