OP
OP
Indyking
Well-Known Member
Fortunately, I can not speak for that... LOL...
Battle against airlock activity!
- Thread starter Indyking
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Fortunately, I can not speak for that... LOL...
Germelli1
Well-Known Member
So lets see, it took 48 hours for fermentation to start.
Ther first reply said wait 72 hours before you worry.
You worried and proved the first reply that you mocked right.
Is that about it?
Ther first reply said wait 72 hours before you worry.
You worried and proved the first reply that you mocked right.
Is that about it?
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
The reason I worried was that I have been using S-04 for quite a while and it has never taken more than 6-8 hours to start krausen formation and robust airlock activity. In fact if you google it you will see that the main complaint about this yeast is how fast it kicks in fermentation. Anyhow, the krausen is right now finally well formed, yet no airlock activity but I don't care.. Not even thinking about repitching any more... I think this beer will come out pretty nice...
So, what you're saying is, to answer the above post is, "Yes."
mattmuir
Well-Known Member
Pretty much a noob here but I have had kinda the same situation here as well. All of my batches ahve take off rather fast except two that I brewed over the weekend. The temp was 63 to 65 well within the ale guidelines but zero airlock bubbles. After two days I moved to a warmer spot around 70 and bam took off like a rocket.
munche
Well-Known Member
Threads where people ask for advice, then try to prove the advice givers wrong, are my favorite threads.
I wonder if OP is related to the "That's what Jamil says!" guy
I wonder if OP is related to the "That's what Jamil says!" guy
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Only for those who missed the point, quite frankly...
Germelli1
Well-Known Member
What is the point that would be missed? That you planned your brewday right before you were going out of town? Or that an unproofed packaged of yeast in a higher than average gravity beer didn't take off or act as it normally does?
I am all for giving advice and being friendly, but it gets tough when the OP isn't appriciative and argues with those whose sound advice prooved true.
I am all for giving advice and being friendly, but it gets tough when the OP isn't appriciative and argues with those whose sound advice prooved true.
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Still missed it... Sorry but I think this thread is dead so not really worth going thru details of what the real point was.
I appreciated the help of those who understood my dilemma and feel bad for those whose primary intentions were to prove I was doing something wrong... Unecessary!
Anyway, a few lessons learned:
- there is such a thing as fast or slow fermentation despite the contrary belief. The whole idea behind Safale S-04 vs Us-05 is fast fermenting at the expense of more sediment but more clear beer too. A must have got a slow lot of yeast packet or who knows how this yeast was stored before reaching my hands
- I'm glad I did not follow the urge to check the SG as many persisted. It would have been too early and there are risks for doing that at that point, not huge, but considerable.
RDWHAHB or something like that, you got the idea... Cheers
- I'm glad I did not follow the urge to check the SG as many persisted. It would have been too early and there are risks for doing that at that point, not huge, but considerable.
RDWHAHB or something like that, you got the idea... Cheers
Well, people were telling you to check the SG so that you were making your determination of the status of your beer on something more than a gut feeling.
Some people can never be wrong.
dilbone
Well-Known Member
geesh...I waited over 50 hours and had no change in gravity before I panic'd and decided to re-pitch after finding out it was a re-called batch of Notti...
Not sure why you don't think a gravity reading was a good idea...since it is the ONLY quantitative measure of how much fermentation has taken place...
Not sure why you don't think a gravity reading was a good idea...since it is the ONLY quantitative measure of how much fermentation has taken place...
Germelli1
Well-Known Member
Shhhhhh! You are missing the point that is blantantly obvious yet only the OP knows what it is!
vicratlhead51
Well-Known Member
A YEAST infection that is...
(I was just image/googling looking for a funny yeast infection sign....there are none....you DON'T want to google image yeast infections....)
Lol! I said something to one of my buddies about hoping I didn't have an infection in a batch I made a couple months ago and he said, "A yeast infection? ew nasty!" I just laughed and said no I WANT a yeast infection!:rockin:
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Precisely...
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Precisely... I can't help you...
ksbrain
Well-Known Member
I think everyone needs to back off from attacking Indyking. He's just like any of us trying to ask a question here.
RedGlass
Well-Known Member
+1. Sorry for piling on here, but:
You did not learn those lessons. You learned that fermentation can take 0-72 hours to take off, as Revvy told you right at the beginning. You would have been able to speak to an experience with fast or slow fermentations if you had taken a gravity reading to diagnose your problem, but you did not. You came to a conclusion in your head about what was wrong (e.g. "must have got a slow lot of yeast") and refuse to acknowledge that the original advice telling you to relax was absolutely correct.
HItransplant
Well-Known Member
mmm hmmmm
HSM
Well-Known Member
Rest assured he's keeping score and monitoring for the next cut and paste opportunity.
HItransplant
Well-Known Member
agree.. and, Im starting to understand Revvy's frustration....
thanks for putting up with us
Wait... you mean to tell me that a population of living organisms didn't act exactly the same every single time?! Even with possible varying conditions such as temperature, OG, hops, nutrients available, age of yeast packet, sanitation, volume, rehydration variation, water quality, and of course random chance?!?!?!
I'm flabbergasted....
I'm flabbergasted....
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
I don't really underdand all the attacks, sarcasm and cynicism against my simple questions and concerns. I thought we are in the same boat here and supposed to help each other no matter how absurd the problem seems to you or how smart you think you are.
But I think the problem really is how smart you think you are. Several people answered the many-layered questions you had... and I say many-layered because every time someone would answer a question sufficiently, you said "You just don't understand" and could obviously not be proven wrong. And FYI, Revvy offers excellent information that many people on here would swear by. Don't immediately shrug it off.
There is no way to reason with someone who asks advice and then tells those giving advise why they are wrong so sarcasm is the best way to get your attention.
I get it. You've used S-04 in the past and it always has, as you call it, a "strong/fast fermentation." And I'll just reiterate what I said before, sans-sarcasm: yeast are living things. There are a multitude of factors that can affect fermentation.
There is no way to reason with someone who asks advice and then tells those giving advise why they are wrong so sarcasm is the best way to get your attention.
I get it. You've used S-04 in the past and it always has, as you call it, a "strong/fast fermentation." And I'll just reiterate what I said before, sans-sarcasm: yeast are living things. There are a multitude of factors that can affect fermentation.
dilbone
Well-Known Member
dude, not trying to jump all over you here...it just seems like you asked a couple of questions(that you seemed to already have your mind made up about with the exception of oxygenating) and then refused to listen to what advice was being offered.
I've been in your shoes with a slow start, but waiting and checking gravity are the only "immediate" answers. In your case of leaving town before the 72 hrs was up then I'd probably just have pitched another packet before I left just to be safe.
Coming on and stating that you "know" x, y adn z to be true without having any quantitative evidence was probably what set people off. I'm not saying anyone has the right to be scarcastic and rude as a result...but it makes sense why this has gone this way. Acting like you know more than other people that have been doing this a lot longer than you will always start a battle of egos...
I too was told by Revvy to wait 72hrs and check gravity. That is the standard advice. BUT before I did ANYTHING I checked gravity and made sure the yeast hadn't actually started to do anything before I pitched again. This all happened while I was using a recalled packet of Notti, so I already had evidence that this yeast could be a problem and the gravity reading confirmed.
I still can't understand why you didn't take a gravity reading to see if indeed the yeast had already begun doing what they do...it would have been a simple test and given you a definitive answer as to wether or not you should pitch again before leaving town...
I've been in your shoes with a slow start, but waiting and checking gravity are the only "immediate" answers. In your case of leaving town before the 72 hrs was up then I'd probably just have pitched another packet before I left just to be safe.
Coming on and stating that you "know" x, y adn z to be true without having any quantitative evidence was probably what set people off. I'm not saying anyone has the right to be scarcastic and rude as a result...but it makes sense why this has gone this way. Acting like you know more than other people that have been doing this a lot longer than you will always start a battle of egos...
I too was told by Revvy to wait 72hrs and check gravity. That is the standard advice. BUT before I did ANYTHING I checked gravity and made sure the yeast hadn't actually started to do anything before I pitched again. This all happened while I was using a recalled packet of Notti, so I already had evidence that this yeast could be a problem and the gravity reading confirmed.
I still can't understand why you didn't take a gravity reading to see if indeed the yeast had already begun doing what they do...it would have been a simple test and given you a definitive answer as to wether or not you should pitch again before leaving town...
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
I never said anybody was wrong and I was right. There was not only false assumptions against me but also poor intentions. Some were and still are making fun of my problem as if there is certain superior authority we are supposed to worship no matter the circumstances...
I think you've got the idea now.
But, believe me, there is no "superior authority", only a cut and paster.
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Yeah, clearly.
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
I now have another problem and I would like to ask the team of "smarts" who like to make fun of "so-obvious" issues to stay away please.
Just checked the carboy after being away for 3 days...Thick well formed krausen going on and this is day 5 after pitching. By this time, I usually have the krausen gone and conditioning has long started, but since this yeast had a slower start, this might be OK. Airlock is still dead but I can tell it was bubbling sometime while I was gone because the liquid inside is displaced. My concern now is the room temp (I don't have a strip thermometer in the carboy, so don't know the wort temp). The thermometer sitting right next to the carboy is telling me that the temp is 61F right now and it was down to 59F for some time while I was gone (probably most of the time since I keep the house thermostat really down when I'm gone). Since I'm back now, the room temp where the carboy is will probably rise to 66-68F for short periods of time while I am in the house but no more than that (I don't want to waste too much energy to warm my house just because of my wort while I'm gone). I'm concerned the low temps will put the yeast in a sort of hibernation mode and not reach its full attenuation capacity, although its fermentation range according to the manufacturer is 59F-75F. Is that possible?
Just checked the carboy after being away for 3 days...Thick well formed krausen going on and this is day 5 after pitching. By this time, I usually have the krausen gone and conditioning has long started, but since this yeast had a slower start, this might be OK. Airlock is still dead but I can tell it was bubbling sometime while I was gone because the liquid inside is displaced. My concern now is the room temp (I don't have a strip thermometer in the carboy, so don't know the wort temp). The thermometer sitting right next to the carboy is telling me that the temp is 61F right now and it was down to 59F for some time while I was gone (probably most of the time since I keep the house thermostat really down when I'm gone). Since I'm back now, the room temp where the carboy is will probably rise to 66-68F for short periods of time while I am in the house but no more than that (I don't want to waste too much energy to warm my house just because of my wort while I'm gone). I'm concerned the low temps will put the yeast in a sort of hibernation mode and not reach its full attenuation capacity, although its fermentation range according to the manufacturer is 59F-75F. Is that possible?
COLObrewer
Well-Known Member
wow . . . . I suggest forgetting about this beer for another couple weeks, then come back and check it.
D0ug
Well-Known Member
yeah, this might be one of those brews that you just need to forget about for awhile and leave in the primary for about a month.
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I think so... I usually leave it at primary for 3 weeks and don't secondary but this one will have to go a long way... I was hoping to have it fully carbonated by Xmas but I think not since I typically let it carbonate for at least 3 weeks but longer is better with my brews so far.
Hey I'll make up for my previous ridiculousness with a sincere answer.
Off-flavors (esters, phenols) are usually thrown off by the yeast during the height of fermentation (use your best judgment to determine when that was and consider what temperatures it may have been at.) But what you should consider is that at the height of fermentation the temperature in the bucket/carboy may be 5 - 10*F higher than the ambient temperature.
Now with that in mind, you're probably looking at wort temperatures actually around 68-75*F (as long as I'm reading your temperature ranges properly.) This won't put it in a dormant state but probably excite them (you know, once they reproduce to a proper population size.) It's pretty typical: organisms metabolize quicker at higher temperatures.
Now, even if your wort was fermenting at the ambient temperature, let's say 62*F, that is actually ideal unless you're making a beer that calls for esters and phenols. Temperatures of low 60's ferment "cleaner" and allow you to taste malty or hoppy flavors that would otherwise be covered up by off-flavors. Some ale yeasts can even be fermenting in the 50's to produce a very clean product, like Nottingham. Just something to keep in mind.
I hope this information helped. Truce?
OP
OP
Indyking
Well-Known Member
Hey I'll make up for my previous ridiculousness with a sincere answer.
Off-flavors (esters, phenols) are usually thrown off by the yeast during the height of fermentation (use your best judgment to determine when that was and consider what temperatures it may have been at.) But what you should consider is that at the height of fermentation the temperature in the bucket/carboy may be 5 - 10*F higher than the ambient temperature.
Now with that in mind, you're probably looking at wort temperatures actually around 68-75*F (as long as I'm reading your temperature ranges properly.) This won't put it in a dormant state but probably excite them (you know, once they reproduce to a proper population size.) It's pretty typical: organisms metabolize quicker at higher temperatures.
Now, even if your wort was fermenting at the ambient temperature, let's say 62*F, that is actually ideal unless you're making a beer that calls for esters and phenols. Temperatures of low 60's ferment "cleaner" and allow you to taste malty or hoppy flavors that would otherwise be covered up by off-flavors. Some ale yeasts can even be fermenting in the 50's to produce a very clean product, like Nottingham. Just something to keep in mind.
I hope this information helped. Truce?
OK, thanks. I checked again this morning and nothing has changed, but it is fermenting all right. I can tell by the active movement in the krausen caused by the CO2 release. Room temp is ranging from 59 to 66F in a day cycle. Still very surprised the airlock is quiet because I thought I sealed the glass carboy really well, but I'm not concerned about it. While it is fermenting, nothing gets in anyway because the CO2 is pushing out using whatever "leak" it found. In theory, after fermentation is done during conditioning, some O2 may come in thru the leak the CO2 was using to escape but I don't think that will be enough to ruin my beer. Besides, I don't plan to age this beer anyway. One difference I have noticed from all my previous ale batches using this yeast is that the krausen looks rather clean for a high OG beer. It's just nice golden foam as opposed to all the solids that usually float in the foam in the previous batches.
user 34267
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FYI, because fermentation is exothermic, you can always raise the temperature of your carboy by wrapping it in some layers of insulation (e.g. blanket, sleeping bag, etc.).
Of course, this should be done carefully because - as stated - the internal temperature of the carboy is going to be higher than the ambient temperature, and you don't want the heat to keep building to the point that it's creating off-flavors... but nonetheless, it can be useful to trap the heat that the fermentation process is creating if your ambient temps are simply too cold for the yeast.
All of the concern about the lack of/size of/look of the krausen or airlock activity could really be set aside if you just opened it and took a gravity reading. The concern of infection is really minor if you're even a little careful. I take regular gravity readings throughout my fermentation process just because I'm always interested to see how quickly the beers ferment, just requires a slight amount of care in cleaning everything.
Of course, this should be done carefully because - as stated - the internal temperature of the carboy is going to be higher than the ambient temperature, and you don't want the heat to keep building to the point that it's creating off-flavors... but nonetheless, it can be useful to trap the heat that the fermentation process is creating if your ambient temps are simply too cold for the yeast.
All of the concern about the lack of/size of/look of the krausen or airlock activity could really be set aside if you just opened it and took a gravity reading. The concern of infection is really minor if you're even a little careful. I take regular gravity readings throughout my fermentation process just because I'm always interested to see how quickly the beers ferment, just requires a slight amount of care in cleaning everything.
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Just checked it again and now there is activity in the airlock... I was really intrigued by the lack of activity because, like I said before, there are little chances of leaks in glass carboys when you are sure the airlock cap was sealed well as I did in my case. I have had batches with little or no activity in the airlock using plastic pails before but not with glass carboys. Everything is quite normal now and I suspect this is going to be my best homebrew so far given the slow-paced fermentation.
So, just recapitulating:
- Amber ale (well the caramunich gave it almost a bock color for now), 3 gal batch, OG: 1072 (18 ºbrix), extract with steeping of specialty grains
- Yeast: Safale S-04, re-hydrated following manufacturer's instructions (exp Dec 2011)
- First signs of fermentation occurred not until 2 days after pitching and consisted of a very small amount of krausen, no airlock activity
- At day 5 after pitching, krausen was well formed but still no airlock activity
- At day 6 after pitching, airlock activity was first observed (bubbling every 3-6 seconds) and krausen motion is increasing
- At day 7, airlock activity has peaked showing vigorous bubbling (1 or more bubbling every second).
- At day 8, airlock activity has ceased and krausen has started to settle down.
- Room temp during fermentation kept in the range of 59-66F
- Wort temp at pitching was around 70F
Cheers!
So, just recapitulating:
- Amber ale (well the caramunich gave it almost a bock color for now), 3 gal batch, OG: 1072 (18 ºbrix), extract with steeping of specialty grains
- Yeast: Safale S-04, re-hydrated following manufacturer's instructions (exp Dec 2011)
- First signs of fermentation occurred not until 2 days after pitching and consisted of a very small amount of krausen, no airlock activity
- At day 5 after pitching, krausen was well formed but still no airlock activity
- At day 6 after pitching, airlock activity was first observed (bubbling every 3-6 seconds) and krausen motion is increasing
- At day 7, airlock activity has peaked showing vigorous bubbling (1 or more bubbling every second).
- At day 8, airlock activity has ceased and krausen has started to settle down.
- Room temp during fermentation kept in the range of 59-66F
- Wort temp at pitching was around 70F
Cheers!
MikeRoBrew1
Well-Known Member
Good to hear it's working. Wish I would have seen this thread earlier, but I've been reading since page two with what is hopefully seen as just another friendly helpful suggestion "JUST WAIT IT OUT! Everything will be fine."
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
Updates for the fermentation timeline were added to post #76 above. Notice that peak airlock activity in this case was at 1 week after pitching, which was amazingly late! I checked other discussion blogs about Safale S-04 and there was not report of such late activities for it. Most people reported peak activity at 6-12 hours after pitching, which is what I had observed before with this yeast. Quite shocking! I’m reporting this because if people using this yeast come here for help about lack of or late activity, the results of this batch can be very helpful.
I find it hard to believe your airlock activity went from balls out crazy to nothing in a period of around 24-36 hours unless a leak was created somewhere between the day you listed as peak and the following day where it ceased.
I find it hard to believe there isn't a leak. No, airlock activity isn't a sure indicator of fermentation, but if you have krausen forming, that's typically a build up of foam (read bubbles) and the pressure of all those bubbles forming on the surface of your beer/wort would increase the pressure between the surface and the top of the container.
I think that might be the source of this whole mess. You saw krausen, but no other visual signs of fermentation. And, as stated, the only true measure of fermentation is with the hydrometer.
The sooner you figure out putting the fermenter in a closet or somewhere you can't see it after pitching and leaving it alone for a few days to a week, the better. Kind of like the old saying a watched pot never boils.
I just put a batch in a carboy for the first time and I find myself checking it daily to see what it looks like and what it's doing. I just peek in the closet at it, I'm not opening the carboy and doing anything to it, but I was expecting crazy krausen and all kinds of fireworks to go on in there. When it didn't I started to wonder why "nothing" was happening. Then I thought of this thread. Just leave it alone and let it do its thing. When you suspect fermentation might be done, give the hydrometer a swim.
I find it hard to believe there isn't a leak. No, airlock activity isn't a sure indicator of fermentation, but if you have krausen forming, that's typically a build up of foam (read bubbles) and the pressure of all those bubbles forming on the surface of your beer/wort would increase the pressure between the surface and the top of the container.
I think that might be the source of this whole mess. You saw krausen, but no other visual signs of fermentation. And, as stated, the only true measure of fermentation is with the hydrometer.
The sooner you figure out putting the fermenter in a closet or somewhere you can't see it after pitching and leaving it alone for a few days to a week, the better. Kind of like the old saying a watched pot never boils.
I just put a batch in a carboy for the first time and I find myself checking it daily to see what it looks like and what it's doing. I just peek in the closet at it, I'm not opening the carboy and doing anything to it, but I was expecting crazy krausen and all kinds of fireworks to go on in there. When it didn't I started to wonder why "nothing" was happening. Then I thought of this thread. Just leave it alone and let it do its thing. When you suspect fermentation might be done, give the hydrometer a swim.
OP
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Indyking
Well-Known Member
I believe there is no leak. The fermentation in my case took a long time to start, after that it went just what I expected, has observed in the past, and was reported in other discussions for Safale S-04, that is, a 48-72 hour cycle from beginning airlock activity going to peak bubbling to rest. That's pretty typical.
Also remember this was a 3 gal batch. Smaller batches ferment faster. When I do starters in my 1-gal jug, often fermentation occurs so fast that I missed it, only knows it has occurred based on the SG readings a few hours later after pitching, so the volume of wort is a big factor. Glass carboys with a tight sealing cap are almost impossible to leak. I have had batches on plastic fermenters with no or little airlock activity but not with glass carboys.
