Batch #1 -- Early Sampling Results

[kyoun1e]

Welp, it's been about 9 days since I bottled my first batch, a white IPA extract kit, so I figured I'd take a sample. See pic below.

On the right, for comparison's sake is a Trillium Congress St. IPA. World class stuff. On the left, is my "white" IPA (that doesn't look so white).

Bottom Line: Not liking what I taste.

Some good news:

* I like the color although I'm not sure this is what it should look like.
* Only 9 days out, the carbonation looks solid. Heard a nice snap upon opening.
* Very little sediment at the bottom.

The bad:

* Aroma just isn't favorable. When I take a sniff of the Trillium I get all kinds of tropical/fruity type smells. When I smell mine there's really nothing that favorable.
* Taste was overly bitter. I don't see the balance.
* Appearance: Definitely some sediment floating around in the beer. Almost looked a little too "active" as if it was maybe yeast. Keep in mind, this was the last beer I bottled so without a doubt I was getting the dregs in the bottling bucket.

So I'm thinking back to how this went and trying to identify where I can improve the process. Any help here would be appreciated. Some thoughts:

1. Bottling Conditioning: It's only been 9 days so maybe the three weeks here could improve the situation, but really how much?

2. Steeping Temp: I had trouble keeping the temperature in the right range when steeping the grains. It was up towards 180. Not sure if this is a factor.

3. Funnel Clog: When I poured the wort into the carboy the strainer in the carboy got clogged. There was some panic there. I dipped a spoon (which I sanitized) in the funnel to try and unclog. I also dumped the wort in the funnel back in the bucket and then back into the funnel minus the strainer. I remember being paranoid about sanitization here, but I could swear I did everything I could.

4. Foam: Took a while to top off my carboy due to foam. Don't really think this matters.

5. Starsan in the airlock: This was a screwup. Instead of filling my airlock halfway with starsan solution I put JUST starsan in there. I know if this seeped into the carboy it could create off flavors.

6. Blow Off Top: Once this thing cranked up it blew off in early morning hours while I was sleeping. It was probably a good 10 hours before I fully resolved the situation.

So, there it is. Really hoping another 2 weeks in the bottles helps, but I don't know. A little disappointed I must say. Gotta figure this out.

Thanks

 

[shecallsmeblue]

Color could be due to this being an extract brew. They often come out a little darker. I say give it time. You'd be surprised what proper time to condition can do for the beer.

 

[kyoun1e]

Color could be due to this being an extract brew. They often come out a little darker. I say give it time. You'd be surprised what proper time to condition can do for the beer.

Definitely not touching for another couple weeks. The carbonation seems pretty solid too.

 

[BMWillis]

First off, congrats on your first batch! Welcome to the addiction. It only gets better as you start gaining knowledge and fine-tuning your process

Do you have a recipe or a link to the kit you used? Might be helpful answering some questions I have about some of the points you're concerned about with your brew. Especially the hop additions, that'll help us pinpoint whats up with the bitterness and (lack of) aroma.

- 9 days is still pretty young when it comes to bottle conditioning, so it may just be a factor of the beer becoming less 'green'. Admittedly, its been forever since I've bottled an IPA, so hopefully someone with more recent experience will touch on this point more.

-When steeping temps start getting close or above the 180F mark, thats when tannins can come into play. That could lead to an astringent bitterness. Keeping your steep temps down closer to the 155-160F range will get rid of the chance of picking up those tannins.

- As long as your sanitization during your funnel clog was good, I don't see any issues here. Maybe think about ditching the strainer if you brew beers with lots of hop additions in the kettle.

- I'm guessing you're talking about foam from StarSan after you sanitized your fermenter? Again, no worries here! The foam means you know its working

- Live and learn! I keep a spray bottle of StarSan next to my ferm chamber just in case the airlock ever needs a little topper.

- Couple different ways to tackle this one. Blow off tube for the first week-ish. Bigger volume fermenter. FermCap-S. Lots of options.

 

[kyoun1e]

Do you have a recipe or a link to the kit you used? Might be helpful answering some questions I have about some of the points you're concerned about with your brew. Especially the hop additions, that'll help us pinpoint whats up with the bitterness and (lack of) aroma.

Here's a look at the ingredients.

Yeah that high steeping temp may have been a problem.

SPECIALTY GRAIN,
CRUSHED
8 oz Flaked Wheat
4 oz Rahr 6 Row
4 oz Flaked Oats
FERMENTABLES
2 x 3.3 lb cans Briess
Pilsen Light LME
1 x 1 lb Briess Wheat DME
HOPS & FLAVORINGS
1 oz CTZ Pellets – Bittering
1 oz Cascade Pellets – Flavor
1 oz Cascade Pellets – Aroma
1 oz Citra Pellets – Dry hop
1 oz Bitter Orange Peel
½ oz Coriander
YEAST
11.5 g Fermentis SafAle US-05
OTHER
5 oz Priming Sugar
55 ct Bottling Caps
1 Muslin Bag
I

 

[kyoun1e]

All help appreciated here...

 

[MrBJones]

As already pointed out, 9 days is pretty short. When you prime and cap a bottle, it doesn't only carb up; it also conditions, with the flavors and aromas smoothing and blending. Just a couple days ago I opened an Irish red ale that had been bottled two full weeks earlier; it was OK, but still "green"...in another couple weeks it'll be much better. So will your IPA.

 

[kyoun1e]

As already pointed out, 9 days is pretty short. When you prime and cap a bottle, it doesn't only carb up; it also conditions, with the flavors and aromas smoothing and blending. Just a couple days ago I opened an Irish red ale that had been bottled two full weeks earlier; it was OK, but still "green"...in another couple weeks it'll be much better. So will your IPA.

I really hope you're right.

My local homebrew store guy seemed concerned about putting the pure starsan in the airlock vs. the starsan solution. That clog in the funnel was worrisome but I was spraying starsan like no tmrw during that whole episode.

For the most part, I felt like I followed the instructions well and I keep hearing how home brewing is a "forgiving process" so I'm hoping for the best here.

 

[BMWillis]

I wouldn't worry too much about the StarSan in the airlock, with the positive pressure environment during fermentation its very unlikely that a measurable amount made its way into your bucket. Unless you cold crashed, then you may have had a bit of suck-back.


I'd be willing to bet you some homebrew that after a couple more weeks of bottle conditioning you'll have some tasty brew on your hands

 

[popsicleian]

I agree with what everyone else has said so far--I think you'll be much happier in a couple of weeks. I've also found my beers are better after several days in the fridge post bottle conditioning.

I'd also add that if you're comparing your first homebrew to a Trillium beer, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. There are a lot of things that have a big impact on beer, like yeast health, water chemistry, fermentation temperature, that I'm guessing you haven't even scratched the surface on. You can still make good beer without having mastered every single one of those variables, but you definitely can't expect it to be as good as a brewery that makes world-class IPAs.

 

[TungstenBeer]

My thoughts.

* Aroma just isn't favorable. When I take a sniff of the Trillium I get all kinds of tropical/fruity type smells. When I smell mine there's really nothing that favorable. This isn't necessarily surprising. But it's not a bad thing. You're a new homebrewer, they're a professional world-class brewery. You could brew for years and never replicate what they do, but you can absolutely learn and improve! Another one of your comments mentioned the color of the beer. I think that is exactly what I'd expect based on your ingredients. Light colored beers are tough to pull off using extract.
* Taste was overly bitter. I don't see the balance. See #2 below. Hop schedule looks fine.
* Appearance: Definitely some sediment floating around in the beer. Almost looked a little too "active" as if it was maybe yeast. Keep in mind, this was the last beer I bottled so without a doubt I was getting the dregs in the bottling bucket. I'm confused - you originally mentioned there wasn't much sediment at the bottom.

1. Bottling Conditioning: It's only been 9 days so maybe the three weeks here could improve the situation, but really how much? It can matter a lot. Have you ever aged a beer like an imperial stout or barleywine for a year or more? This is a much shorter timespan, yes, but the concept is the same: flavors change, evolve, blend, and mesh.

2. Steeping Temp: I had trouble keeping the temperature in the right range when steeping the grains. It was up towards 180. Not sure if this is a factor. I really do think the steeping grains happening at 180F probably is causing the excessive bitterness you mentioned - it's probably astringency, but those flavors can be perceived very similarly. In the future, if your wort gets too hot while you're steeping, you could always add a little cold water to cool it back down (and at the same time adjust your heat down).

3. Funnel Clog: When I poured the wort into the carboy the strainer in the carboy got clogged. There was some panic there. I dipped a spoon (which I sanitized) in the funnel to try and unclog. I also dumped the wort in the funnel back in the bucket and then back into the funnel minus the strainer. I remember being paranoid about sanitization here, but I could swear I did everything I could. No problem.

4. Foam: Took a while to top off my carboy due to foam. Don't really think this matters. It doesn't matter.

5. Starsan in the airlock: This was a screwup. Instead of filling my airlock halfway with starsan solution I put JUST starsan in there. I know if this seeped into the carboy it could create off flavors. If you got some into your fermenter, it could create a problem but I honestly don't think that would have happened. If you didn't overfill the airlock (I believe you used a 3-piece), it'd be almost impossible for any liquid to siphon into the carboy. I'd be more concerned that the plastic was broken down somehow, which probably isn't a concern either.

6. Blow Off Top: Once this thing cranked up it blew off in early morning hours while I was sleeping. It was probably a good 10 hours before I fully resolved the situation. I don't think that'll matter either.

 

[kyoun1e]

Yeah the steeping temp was a problem. Was definitely high.

One other thing I just thought of: The water.

I use the faucet and sink in my basement. No reason to believe that this water is any worse than all the other faucets in the house. That said, I've never checked the PH level. I use this water for the initial boil. I then top off to 5 gallons with distilled water.

 

[TungstenBeer]

If you have no reason to think that water would be any worse than any other water, then that should be fine. Drink a glass - is it the same as other faucets? It would have be really gnarly due to an old corroding pipe or something.

Water chemistry is definitely something that I place importance on as well, although it doesn't matter as much for extract brewing (because the grains have already been mashed). That said, if your water has a lot of chlorine or chloramine in it - and sometimes big municipalities like Boston do - then that could certainly mute the hop flavors and aroma some.

 

[kyoun1e]

My thoughts.

Welp, I had another sampling. Three weeks+ of bottle conditioning so was hoping for some improvement.

A little bit, but without a doubt, this beer is waaaay too bitter.

I was at the local homebrew store and told the guy there my story and mentioned the steeping grain temp at 180 and he definitely said that could have been a major issue. Something along the lines of creating "competing bitterness" with the hops.

Oh well. Looks like batch #1 was a bit of a failure. Hoping for improved results with batch #2 and batch #3 ingredients have been purchased.

Onward.

 

[kyoun1e]

Well, I just brought some of my first batch over to my local homebrew store guys. They offer to taste your beer and see what off flavors may exist and probe your process to help determine what may have went wrong. Four guys looked at it, smelled it, and tasted it.

So I fully expected them to take a sip and throw up.

I was wrong!

My first batch -- a white IPA -- they said was perfectly fine and tastes like a white IPA! They also gave me a 7 out of 10 on it.

I'll take it.

They offered this: That maybe I don't like white IPAs?!?

Possible.

Anyways, feel a little better.

One thing I don't feel good about: I honestly don't know if I can judge my own beer. I don't know what it is. Think I need to do a blind test or something vs similar beers.

Think I need to understand what I need to look for against different styles of beers.

I have a lot to learn. And drink.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have a lot to learn. And drink.

+1 to that.

+1 also to not sweating comparisons with Trillium, it is like wondering why you don't run as fast as Usain Bolt or paint the Sistine Chapel. Just concentrate on the basics for now, whilst using that kind of stuff as inspiration. But seriously, those super-juicy beers are difficult - in another thread there's over 600 posts from experienced brewers just working out how to clone Tree House Julius, so far it's looking like four different yeast strains in three pitches at different temperatures - and that's just the yeast! So I'd mebbe learn the basics of your craft with something a bit simpler (and that you actually like to drink!) before racing off the Vatican. Having said that, the way you get those huge juicy noses is through massive amounts of whirlpool/dry hops, like 1-2 oz PER GALLON. But that on its own introduces other challenges, you need to be quite careful with your water chemistry for instance.

Talking of which - on the temperature thing, it doesn't matter unless the pH is too high as well. Just using pH strips can give you a rough-but-good-enough idea of where the mash pH is. Is your water fairly hard, does your kitchen kettle fur up easily? If so then you want to be checking pH, particularly for such a pale beer - you will have fewer problems with darker beers as they're naturally more acid. You want your mash to be around 5.3-5.4 ideally, you get problems with astringency if your mash is over pH 6 and it gets too hot. Note that's your mash pH not your tapwater pH, your tapwater may well be over 7.

 

[shortyz]

i live by the mantra if i think my brew is sub par, its sub par (people will say its good). if i think its excellent people think its amazing.

to be quite honest i was never able to achieve a decent ipa with an extract brew, possibly because of my boil volume. went to ag and full boils and they are far easier. i still believe that hop quality plays a huge part in making a decent ipa. getting pellets that may be a year old arent helping your brew. know your hops and where they are coming from and how old they are.

 

[kyoun1e]

+1 to that.

+1 also to not sweating comparisons with Trillium, it is like wondering why you don't run as fast as Usain Bolt or paint the Sistine Chapel. Just concentrate on the basics for now, whilst using that kind of stuff as inspiration. But seriously, those super-juicy beers are difficult - in another thread there's over 600 posts from experienced brewers just working out how to clone Tree House Julius, so far it's looking like four different yeast strains in three pitches at different temperatures - and that's just the yeast! So I'd mebbe learn the basics of your craft with something a bit simpler (and that you actually like to drink!) before racing off the Vatican. Having said that, the way you get those huge juicy noses is through massive amounts of whirlpool/dry hops, like 1-2 oz PER GALLON. But that on its own introduces other challenges, you need to be quite careful with your water chemistry for instance.

Talking of which - on the temperature thing, it doesn't matter unless the pH is too high as well. Just using pH strips can give you a rough-but-good-enough idea of where the mash pH is. Is your water fairly hard, does your kitchen kettle fur up easily? If so then you want to be checking pH, particularly for such a pale beer - you will have fewer problems with darker beers as they're naturally more acid. You want your mash to be around 5.3-5.4 ideally, you get problems with astringency if your mash is over pH 6 and it gets too hot. Note that's your mash pH not your tapwater pH, your tapwater may well be over 7.

Yeah, I hear you on the Trillium comparison. I actually did a blind taste test comparing my IPA vs. Founder's All Day IPA and Alpine's Hoppy Birthday. I was able to pick mine out but I thought it was in the same ballpark. Ironically, I think I may be finding out I may not like overly bitter IPAs unless they have that elusive juicyness!

On water, I tested my PH on the water. Strips showed purple color (or 6.2) and then I used a meter and it read 8.1-8.2 (while distilled water was a 7).

Is this too high?

Also keep in mind that I'm still doing extracts right now. I'm not there with all grain, but if my 2nd batch comes out all right I may be on my way.

Thanks!

 

[jlinz]

The temp for the steeping grains went a bit too high, as mentioned.

A little trick to help you: Put your steeping grains in when you start warming up your water. Watch your thermometer as the water starts to get hotter. When you near 165ish take out your grains and add your extract (take off the flame when adding extract). Mix well and head towards boiling. Viola!

 

[Draken]

The temp for the steeping grains went a bit too high, as mentioned.

A little trick to help you: Put your steeping grains in when you start warming up your water. Watch your thermometer as the water starts to get hotter. When you near 165ish take out your grains and add your extract (take off the flame when adding extract). Mix well and head towards boiling. Viola!

Don't add the extract like this. I'll add some up front (heat source off) and the majority with 15-10 minutes left in the boil. Adding it all at the start will result in a darker beer as you carmelize some of the sugars during the boil. Adding it late will get you closer to the intended color of your brew.

Edit: whenever adding dme, lme, or sugar of any kind always cut the heat source till they are thoroughly integrated. This prevents scorching and burning, two flavors that are usually not wanted in beer. Just stir fast and get the heat back on asap and you don't even have to stop the timer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Yeah, I hear you on the Trillium comparison. I actually did a blind taste test comparing my IPA vs. Founder's All Day IPA and Alpine's Hoppy Birthday. I was able to pick mine out but I thought it was in the same ballpark. Ironically, I think I may be finding out I may not like overly bitter IPAs unless they have that elusive juicyness!

That's OK, it's all part of the journey, learning what your tastebuds like! Nothing says you have to make an IPA - it sounds like you might suit a traditional English best bitter or pale ale. Which are styles that are well served by extract kits and are well understood, they're relatively easy to do and they should be relatively easy to troubleshoot, which makes them good for honing your process.

On water, I tested my PH on the water. Strips showed purple color (or 6.2) and then I used a meter and it read 8.1-8.2 (while distilled water was a 7).

Is this too high?

I take it these were "brewing" pH strips that only go up to 6 or so? So they were just saying "more than pH 6"? If your tapwater is over 8 then yes, that's very alkaline and could well be the reason for your astringency. Although the only pH reading that really matters is your mash pH, not your starting water. It's easy enough to fix - I've even used 2 tsp of wine vinegar to get my mash pH down when I didn't have anything else to hand, but there are better options. The guys at your local shop will know the local water better than anyone, it's worth having a chat to them about how they treat the water. If you don't make it down there before your next brew, just aim to get the mash pH down to 5.3-5.4 or so.

Also if you don't like a "hard" bitterness then you will probably want more of a chloride-heavy water than sulphate-heavy water, but that's getting into more advanced water chemistry.

 

[jlinz]

Don't add the extract like this. I'll add some up front (heat source off) and the majority with 15-10 minutes left in the boil. Adding it all at the start will result in a darker beer as you carmelize some of the sugars during the boil. Adding it late will get you closer to the intended color of your brew.

Edit: whenever adding dme, lme, or sugar of any kind always cut the heat source till they are thoroughly integrated. This prevents scorching and burning, two flavors that are usually not wanted in beer. Just stir fast and get the heat back on asap and you don't even have to stop the timer.

Good catch. Didn't see that he's making a white IPA at first.

 

[moose5180]

i have never been happy with my beer til 3-4 weeks. Dont sweat it. Let it sit in a dark closet and forget about it for a month. You will be surprised how much better it is.

 

[shortyz]

i have never been happy with my beer til 3-4 weeks. Dont sweat it. Let it sit in a dark closet and forget about it for a month. You will be surprised how much better it is.

waiting to drink an ipa for 4 weeks is a horrible mistake.

 

[moose5180]

waiting to drink an ipa for 4 weeks is a horrible mistake.

probably is, good thing i dont like IPA

 

[kyoun1e]

waiting to drink an ipa for 4 weeks is a horrible mistake.

Why?

I actually just cracked another one of these IPAs. They continue to sit and condition and when I expect I'll drink some I stick them in the fridge. There's no doubt that time conditioning has improved this thing.