baffled by beer smith...advice needed

[storytyme]

Hey everyone. I have spent a considerable amount of time researching this, but thought I would come on to the encyclopedia of home brewing to get the answer. Here is my situation.

I thought I would tweak and tighten up my brewing process. After getting a chugger pump I was feeling close to a professional brewer as there is (thats a joke by the way). I tweaked my equipment profile on Beersmith and I was ready to go. I hadn't brewed since New Years day and I had 2 days off with no one around so I was going back to back brew days. Since I was out of IPA I was doing a IPA on Thursday and an Imperial IPA today (Friday). I bought all the ingredients on Wednesday and I was ready to roll. This is where something went wrong and I am not sure what. My pre-boil gravity seemed ok, but the OG was way low. I thought I figured it out with the fact that I thought TOT EFF on Beersmith was was mash EFF, but then there is Brewhouse EFF as well. I thought I figured it out for day 2, but I did not.

So my IPA will now be a session IPA thing (which is fine), but now I was ready to make it up with the imperial IPA. I had to add some corn sugar and DME to get the gravity back up since my recipe was being based on a brewhouse EFF of 72%. It said my OG should be around 1.080. My pre-boil gravity without the sugar and DME added was 1.037. After the wort started to boil I added the sugar and DME and took a reading and it was around 1.047 (about 69% EFF) I thought I was good until my OG was 1.053 (a bit far from 1.080). SO what is the deal. If I am doing something completely stupid I need to know. I have made plenty of good beer and after 50+ batches I thought I was getting better, but this has thrown me for a loop.

I even went back and made a spreadsheet of all the brews I have done using Beersmith and my MASH EFF avg is 72% and my Brewhouse EFF is 67%. What should my equipment profiles be set at?? One other note is that I realized I was getting an extra gallon into my boiler from the mash tun that I wasn't expecting.

Something is off, and I hope it is just me. You guys are awesome. Cheers to all.

*this is all clear in my head, but putting it into words may sound confusing. I would love to clarify any piece of it. Thanks

 

[sj3324]

It seems weird that your preboil gravity would be ok and post boil was not, unless your boil off rate was slower than usual. Maybe you didn't have the wort stirred well before taking your reading?

Having an extra gallon will knock your OG down quite a bit. The math still doesn't quite add up, but I would say that is the main cause for lower OG. If you start with 1 extra gallon you will most likely finish with 1 extra gallon, as your boil off rate is going to stay the same. So your sugars are in there they are just diluted down more.

One way to correct that would be if you know you have extra wort when you start the boil, boil off until you get to your normal volume and then start the timer and hop additions.

 

[helibrewer]

Are you extract brewing? Make sure "Extract" is selected on the design tap because it should not be calculating mash efficiency for extract batches.

You say your pre-boil gravity was good but was your pre-boil volume correct?

 

[storytyme]

I am doing all grain. My pre-boil gravity wasn't exactly correct. It was a bit low. It just wasn't as off as the final gravity. My pre-boil volume is est. at around 8.5. After draining the mash tun it was 9.5 gal. Am I over estimating grain absorption? I am using a 10 gal round cooler.

I feel as if I had some calculation off or box checked/unchecked and then got my grain bill and expected one thing and got another. Here is my grain bill for both batches:

1st batch:
11.00 lb 2 row US
0.59 lb crystal 40L
0.53 lb Carapils/Dextrine

est pre-boil gravity: 1.047.....actual pre-boil gravity: 1.036
est original gravity: 1.059.....actual original gravity: 1.041



2nd batch:
11.55 lb 2 row US
1.39 lb crystal 10L
0.92 lb carapils/dextrine
0.57 caravienne malt
1.0 oz Amarillo hops in the mash

est pre-boil gravity: 1.056.....actual pre-boil gravity: 1.037
est original gravity: 1.071.....actual original gravity: 1.053

**through my experience with batch one I added .44 lbs of dry malt extract to boil along with 1.25 lb corn sugar. Doing that bumped "pre" boil gravity to about 1.047 and the original gravity to the 1.053. (Beersmith said that if I added the sugar and DME that my est original gravity should be 1.080!

Both batches my pre-boil volume was about 1 gal too much (plus I could of drained the mash tun more for another .25 gal or so)

Hope this post is a little clearer than last nights. A few beers and frustration is not a great combo for posting:cross:

Thanks everyone. Cheers.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Take a good look at the Volumes tab for both recipes. Examine it well, as there is a lot of information contained there. Do all of the volumes (e.g., boil-off, dead space, absorption, trub loss, batch size, etc.) look accurate?

 

[storytyme]

Take a good look at the Volumes tab for both recipes. Examine it well, as there is a lot of information contained there. Do all of the volumes (e.g., boil-off, dead space, absorption, trub loss, batch size, etc.) look accurate?

Here are my settings. Anything look off??

boil-off is 1.5 gal/hr
dead space is .56 gal
absorption is 1.46 gal for a grain bill of 12.13 lb of grain (.12gal.lb)
trub/chiller loss is 1.5 gal
batch size is 5.25 gal

 

[JayDubWill]

Your trub/chiller loss looks very high. For example mine is set to 0.35 gal and may be why you are ending up with an extra gallon of wort. Of course your actual loss for this will vary based on your equipment.

If you end up with a gallon too much, boil it down. If you haven't made a measurement stick (get an oak dowel, pour a measured gallon of water in the brew pot and notch the dowel at the water level, repeat every gallon until you have a couple more than your typical full boil volumes.)

 

[LLBeanJ]

I don't know your system, so I couldn't say. They all look plausible, though. The real question is, do they look right to you?

You stated that you were over volume by about 1.0 gallon pre-boil. Assuming your starting volume was correct, this would be the result of: a) planned vs. actual dead space and/or b) planned vs. actual absorption. Also, did you sparge at all? If so, sparging with 1 gallon less water would have yielded a correct pre-boil volume, regardless of planned dead space and absorption.

Once you dial in your variables so that your system yields a correct pre-boil volume, then you would increase or decrease planned efficiency in BS so that the grain bill yields an accurate pre-boil gravity. Following that, if your post-boil volume is correct, then post-boil gravity would have to be correct as well. The only way it wouldn't be would be due to a pre/post-boil measurement error on the volume and/or SG.

 

[storytyme]

Your trub/chiller loss looks very high. For example mine is set to 0.35 gal and may be why you are ending up with an extra gallon of wort. Of course your actual loss for this will vary based on your equipment.

If you end up with a gallon too much, boil it down. If you haven't made a measurement stick (get an oak dowel, pour a measured gallon of water in the brew pot and notch the dowel at the water level, repeat every gallon until you have a couple more than your typical full boil volumes.)

I am using a steel braid in the boil kettle which leaves quite a bit of liquid and trub so I calculated it so I don't have to tip the kettle when racking it to the fermenter. I may have to rethink this step possibly. My kettle has a measuring sight glass which is calibrated correctly (double checked that too). Thanks for the thoughts.

I may have to go back and redo some testing to get accurate losses. Plus my burner right now is acting up and annoying me (banjo style burner).

 

[storytyme]

I don't know your system, so I couldn't say. They all look plausible, though. The real question is, do they look right to you?

You stated that you were over volume by about 1.0 gallon pre-boil. Assuming your starting volume was correct, this would be the result of: a) planned vs. actual dead space and/or b) planned vs. actual absorption. Also, did you sparge at all? If so, sparging with 1 gallon less water would have yielded a correct pre-boil volume, regardless of planned dead space and absorption.

Once you dial in your variables so that your system yields a correct pre-boil volume, then you would increase or decrease planned efficiency in BS so that the grain bill yields an accurate pre-boil gravity. Following that, if your post-boil volume is correct, then post-boil gravity would have to be correct as well. The only way it wouldn't be would be due to a pre/post-boil measurement error on the volume and/or SG.

Yes I batch sparge. It looks like I need to do some dry runs to get the numbers dialed in a bit. The gal too much in pre-boil vol does have me confused the most.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Agreed.

If you're sparging and I assume you are, hitting the correct pre-boil volume into the kettle should be easy. You just stop collecting wort once you hit your pre-boil volume. The other variables are important from an efficiency standpoint, as they are all potential avenues for the loss of sugars. For that reason, they need to be accounted for accurately in order for your eventual OG into the fermenter to be correct.

 

[storytyme]

Agreed.

If you're sparging and I assume you are, hitting the correct pre-boil volume into the kettle should be easy. You just stop collecting wort once you hit your pre-boil volume. The other variables are important from an efficiency standpoint, as they are all potential avenues for the loss of sugars. For that reason, they need to be accounted for accurately in order for your eventual OG into the fermenter to be correct.

Yes I am batch sparging. I wanted to drain the mash tun completely to see how much wort I would get. I should of boiled it down longer for sure. One thing I just noticed is that I have the box checked "Adjust Mash Vol for Deadspace". Should I uncheck this? My deadspace is at .56 gal. I am going to retest this. Where does grain absorption value fall into all of this. I don't see a place to put it.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[Aonghus]

I am sorry if I missed it in your post, how long did you mash the grain and what were the temps you used? The enzymes need time to convert the starch to sugar.

 

[storytyme]

I am sorry if I missed it in your post, how long did you mash the grain and what were the temps you used? The enzymes need time to convert the starch to sugar.

I mash for 90 min at a temp between 150-152.

 

[storytyme]

I looked a little deeper into Beersmith and under advance options it has a place for grain absorption which the value matched my records, but it also had a number for grain volume. It was at .652 l/kg. What is this? Is that my mash ratio? If so than that number seems off to me. Thoughts on the advance features?

 

[LLBeanJ]

One thing I just noticed is that I have the box checked "Adjust Mash Vol for Deadspace". Should I uncheck this? My deadspace is at .56 gal. I am going to retest this. Where does grain absorption value fall into all of this. I don't see a place to put it.

I would leave it checked, as that is something I'd think you'd want BS to do.

The grain absorption rate can be found in Options --> Advanced. It's a system setting, so it will dynamically apply itself to all recipes once you change it, as opposed to being a setting that can be modified from recipe to recipe. [Edit: looks like you already found it.]

 

[LLBeanJ]

I looked a little deeper into Beersmith and under advance options it has a place for grain absorption which the value matched my records, but it also had a number for grain volume. It was at .652 l/kg. What is this? Is that my mash ratio? If so than that number seems off to me. Thoughts on the advance features?

I believe grain volume would be the physical space that the grain takes up in the mash tun.

 

[Aonghus]

Yes I am batch sparging. I wanted to drain the mash tun completely to see how much wort I would get. I should of boiled it down longer for sure. One thing I just noticed is that I have the box checked "Adjust Mash Vol for Deadspace". Should I uncheck this? My deadspace is at .56 gal. I am going to retest this. Where does grain absorption value fall into all of this. I don't see a place to put it.

Thanks for all the help.

For info on things like grain absorption (or anything else about the nuts and bolts of brewing) I cannot recommend highly enough, Mr. Palmers book on brewing: http://www.howtobrew.com/sitemap.html

I personally assume I loose anywhere from three cups to four cups (of liquid to the grain). That puts you in the ball park. The dead space in the mash tun should be counted as lost, so subtract that from your expected liquid volume.

 

[gueykewl]

I am no expert on brewing nor the intricacies of Beersmith but, personally, I don’t pay TOO much attention to what Beersmith says my Brewhouse Efficiencies are. Brewhouse Efficiencies are based on what you are bottling or kegging. Which changes due to post fermentation processes, i.e. dry hop or performing a secondary fermentation. Personally, I regularly make an extra 3,500 ml of wort to force ferment new recipes/yeast to get an idea of what my beer should ferment down to. I can also harvest this yeast or use it as a starter for my next beer.

Point is, that 3,500ml of wort is never bottled or kegged, which means it is going to affect my Brewhouse Efficiencies. Also, dry hopping and transferring beer for secondary fermentations will also affect your BHE. I DO however pay attention to my mash efficiencies.

Understanding the brewing process and how it applies to each brewer's individual setup is one of the most interesting parts of brewing beer. In your case, I think you have to look at your problem of hitting your gravity numbers as two separate issues, 1) your mash process (preboil), and 2) getting a good understanding on preboil numbers and how they affect your original SG.

Getting accurate pre-boil gravity and volume numbers, too me, are the two most important numbers to understanding your whole brewing process. Without accurate pre-boil gravity or pre-boil vol numbers, Total Gravity Units, you can never expect accurately dial in your mashing process or figure out your post boil SG should you need to adjust. Knowing your cornerstone numbers you can hit your gravity EVERY time. Ray Daniels explains this in his book Designing Great Beers book.


Looking at your IPA as an example:

Est Total Gravity Units = 47 (1.047) x 8.5 (preboil vol)
= 399.5 TGU
= 59 (1.059) x 6.77 (remember to include your cooling loss %)

In other words, your flame out volume is 6.77 divided by .96 (4% cooling loss) = 7.05 flame out volume.


Knowing this your actual TGU’s are calculated as follows:
Actual Total Gravity Units = 36 (1.036) x 9.5 (preboil vol)
= 342 TGU

You can see you fell 57.5 TGU short (399.5-342), but you can still hit your boil volumes by either boiling longer or adding extract:

Boil longer:
post boil volume = 342 TGU divided by 59 (1.059)
= 5.8 gallons (incl cooling loss %)
So, you would boil the 9.5 gallons of 1.036 wort down to 5.8 gallons to hit your intended OG of 1.059.

or,

Add extract to arrive at an OG of 1.059:
First, for ease of understanding let's assume your preboil OG is still 1.036 but you collected the correct volume of 8.5 gallons.

Actual TGU is now = 36 (1.036) x 8.5 (preboil vol)
= 306 TGU

Diff Est vs Actual = 399.5 - 306
= 93.5 TGU diff
DME to add = 93.5 divided by 45 (DME TGU per gallon)
= 2.08 lbs DME

Using your brew day numbers you not only have to adjust for differences in pre-boil gravity but also pre-boil volume. That extra gallon of 1.036 wort contributed to 36 TGU (342-306), which needs to be accounted for when adding DME to the 9.5 gallons of pre-boil wort, but this is easy an calculated the same way.

Diff Est vs Actual = 399.5 - 342 (remember this is TGU for 9.5 gal)
= 57.5 TGU diff
= 57.5 divided by 45
= 1.28 lbs DME

Adding the 1.28 lbs of DME to the 9.5 of 1.036 wort is going to give you an adjusted TGU of 399.5, divide that by 59 (est. post boil SG) is equal to 6.77 estimated post boil volume.

Sorry for rambling on….and this long post. I think the easiest answer would have been get Ray Daniels: Designing Great Beers (Chap 6?).

 

[wardens355]

I do not like how Beer Smith treats trub loss. If you keep your batch size at 5 gallons and put 1000 gallons trub loss, nothing changes other than your pre-boil volume. I suggest putting 0 for trub loss, then making the estimated trub loss be part of your inputted batch size. You put 1.5 gal trub loss, so your batch size should be 6.75 gallons. Using 6.75 gallons and your IPA recipe, and a 69% efficiency, I get your 1.053 starting gravity.

 

[gueykewl]

I do not like how Beer Smith treats trub loss. If you keep your batch size at 5 gallons and put 1000 gallons trub loss, nothing changes other than your pre-boil volume. I suggest putting 0 for trub loss, then making the estimated trub loss be part of your inputted batch size. You put 1.5 gal trub loss, so your batch size should be 6.75 gallons. Using 6.75 gallons and your IPA recipe, and a 69% efficiency, I get your 1.053 starting gravity.

Yes, I agree and do the same. I never could wrap me head around trub loss affecting est mash eff. Impossible to extract more out of grains than a congress mash yet Beersmith will calculate 100%+ est mash efficiencies.

 

[wardens355]

Yes, I agree and do the same. I never could wrap me head around trub loss affecting est mash eff. Impossible to extract more out of grains than a congress mash yet Beersmith will calculate 100%+ est mash efficiencies.

Yeah, there is a disconnect in there. The best thing would be to either eliminate trub loss, or make it an automatic calculation based on hop amount and recipe. People should understand that when you assign a high amount of trub loss, your total efficiency will go down. Since both total efficiency and trub loss are manual inputs, it really makes no sense to utilize the trub loss input, unless you want to fool around with adjusting total efficiency. My thinking is that I will make an educated guess on the amount of trub I will leave behind, then bump up the batch size to accommodate.

 

[storytyme]

I am no expert on brewing nor the intricacies of Beersmith but, personally, I don’t pay TOO much attention to what Beersmith says my Brewhouse Efficiencies are. Brewhouse Efficiencies are based on what you are bottling or kegging. Which changes due to post fermentation processes, i.e. dry hop or performing a secondary fermentation. Personally, I regularly make an extra 3,500 ml of wort to force ferment new recipes/yeast to get an idea of what my beer should ferment down to. I can also harvest this yeast or use it as a starter for my next beer.

Point is, that 3,500ml of wort is never bottled or kegged, which means it is going to affect my Brewhouse Efficiencies. Also, dry hopping and transferring beer for secondary fermentations will also affect your BHE. I DO however pay attention to my mash efficiencies.

Understanding the brewing process and how it applies to each brewer's individual setup is one of the most interesting parts of brewing beer. In your case, I think you have to look at your problem of hitting your gravity numbers as two separate issues, 1) your mash process (preboil), and 2) getting a good understanding on preboil numbers and how they affect your original SG.

Getting accurate pre-boil gravity and volume numbers, too me, are the two most important numbers to understanding your whole brewing process. Without accurate pre-boil gravity or pre-boil vol numbers, Total Gravity Units, you can never expect accurately dial in your mashing process or figure out your post boil SG should you need to adjust. Knowing your cornerstone numbers you can hit your gravity EVERY time. Ray Daniels explains this in his book Designing Great Beers book.


Looking at your IPA as an example:

Est Total Gravity Units = 47 (1.047) x 8.5 (preboil vol)
= 399.5 TGU
= 59 (1.059) x 6.77 (remember to include your cooling loss %)

In other words, your flame out volume is 6.77 divided by .96 (4% cooling loss) = 7.05 flame out volume.


Knowing this your actual TGU’s are calculated as follows:
Actual Total Gravity Units = 36 (1.036) x 9.5 (preboil vol)
= 342 TGU

You can see you fell 57.5 TGU short (399.5-342), but you can still hit your boil volumes by either boiling longer or adding extract:

Boil longer:
post boil volume = 342 TGU divided by 59 (1.059)
= 5.8 gallons (incl cooling loss %)
So, you would boil the 9.5 gallons of 1.036 wort down to 5.8 gallons to hit your intended OG of 1.059.

or,

Add extract to arrive at an OG of 1.059:
First, for ease of understanding let's assume your preboil OG is still 1.036 but you collected the correct volume of 8.5 gallons.

Actual TGU is now = 36 (1.036) x 8.5 (preboil vol)
= 306 TGU

Diff Est vs Actual = 399.5 - 306
= 93.5 TGU diff
DME to add = 93.5 divided by 45 (DME TGU per gallon)
= 2.08 lbs DME

Using your brew day numbers you not only have to adjust for differences in pre-boil gravity but also pre-boil volume. That extra gallon of 1.036 wort contributed to 36 TGU (342-306), which needs to be accounted for when adding DME to the 9.5 gallons of pre-boil wort, but this is easy an calculated the same way.

Diff Est vs Actual = 399.5 - 342 (remember this is TGU for 9.5 gal)
= 57.5 TGU diff
= 57.5 divided by 45
= 1.28 lbs DME

Adding the 1.28 lbs of DME to the 9.5 of 1.036 wort is going to give you an adjusted TGU of 399.5, divide that by 59 (est. post boil SG) is equal to 6.77 estimated post boil volume.

Sorry for rambling on….and this long post. I think the easiest answer would have been get Ray Daniels: Designing Great Beers (Chap 6?).

No apologies needed. Thank you for taking the time to go through this. I am in the process now of refining my numbers and getting a better grasp on my equipment profiles. Thanks again.

 

[storytyme]

Yeah, there is a disconnect in there. The best thing would be to either eliminate trub loss, or make it an automatic calculation based on hop amount and recipe. People should understand that when you assign a high amount of trub loss, your total efficiency will go down. Since both total efficiency and trub loss are manual inputs, it really makes no sense to utilize the trub loss input, unless you want to fool around with adjusting total efficiency. My thinking is that I will make an educated guess on the amount of trub I will leave behind, then bump up the batch size to accommodate.

I think I may of found something based on the trub loss discussion. Help me understand this if indeed it is the issue. As my batches have gone on I have played with or re-created equipment profiles. On this last profile I had trub loss at 1.5 gal (I think I may of added a little extra just to be safe). Looking at my previous brews I had my trub loss anywhere from 1.3 gal down to 0. Would having it set at 1.5 vs 0 effect the gravity issue?

I keg all my beers in the standard corny style keg that holds right around 5-5.25 gallons. I want my finished beer to be at that volume. My boil off rate is around 1.63 gal/hr. Chill loss is right around 3.7-4% (.125 gal). That puts my pre-boil volume at 5.25 + 1.63 + .125 = 7.01 gal. Now what do I do about the trub loss?If I am leaving trub loss at "0" in beersmith then where do I account for it? Lets say my trub loss is .50 gal. Do I put that into consideration for my overall batch size (5.25 up to 5.75?) Or just know that my pre-boil vol should be 7.51 gal? If the batch size is increased then won't that increase everything as well (grains, hops, etc)?

The more I think about this the more I confuse myself. I love beer smith and wanted all the numbers perfect in there, but based on the comments it seems like I have been fooled.

Thoughts?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Well, let's settle on some terms first. Trub loss, as it pertains to BeerSmith, is kettle trub. Do you have any wort lost in the kettle? If so, that's your trub loss. With my setup, I don't have any, but that's because I do BIAB and dump the whole mess from the kettle into the fermenter.

As far as your question as to whether the trub loss value would impact OG, the answer is yes, definitely.

I'm in the same boat as you are in that I keg into Cornies and want at least 5 gals beyond any fermenter trub to keg. For this reason, I do 6 gal batches into the fermenter. My normal fermenter loss is .5 gal, but I like to have some extra so that I can comfortably keep my auto syphon away from the yeast, which yields less yeast into the keg.

Once you get your numbers dialed in, BS works great, so don't feel as though you've been cheated. You need to first figure out how much kegable beer you expect to get out of the fermenter and work backward from there. Once you have it figured out, you use BS to give you accurate numbers (both OG and volume) from the mash (I.e., pre-boil) and everything after that will fall into place, assuming you have correct values for boil-off, kettle trub, and fermenter loss.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good suggestions here. ^ ^ ^

I'd keep it simple. BS is great for recipe design, once you get past its idiosyncrasies and used to working with it, but that's it for me!

When designing, set your mash efficiency at something realistic, like 70-75% or so and tweak if you find the need.

Mashing calculator: Brew365 or Brewer's Friend
Yeast calculator: MrMalty or Brewer's Friend

When designing in BS, I always set the recipe size to 5.5 or 6 gallons, knowing I'll lose 1/2 to 1 gallon along the way, between trub and racking losses in the kettle and fermentor(s).
If I know I'm dry hopping in a fermentor, I'll make sure to have that extra wort to count for those kind of losses.

Now how's that crush you're getting from your brew store? Poor efficiency is usually due to a poor, coarse crush. Mill 2x or better yet, narrow the gap.

And 1.5 gallons to trub loss is ridiculously high, as is the projected boil off of 1.5 gallon per hour.

In the end you want, say, 6 gallons of wort at your projected 1.0xx OG. You'll then need 6 * xx (ignoring the 1.0) in points to get there. And you'll need to have those points collected from your mash, or you'll be adding DME, sugar, or what not to make it up later (not good, just a simple way to patch).

Measure your first and second (and third) runnings, their volumes and gravities to get an idea how that mash is performing. Add all the points and all your volumes. If you're low on points, your mash is not as efficient as you calculated, use more grain next time. If your volume is higher than your final volume (6 gallons) plus boil off, you're using too much water to sparge (and/or mash).

If batch sparging, use 2 sparges of equal volume, for best extraction/rinsing.

But look at that crush first...

 

[wardens355]

Thoughts?

The important thing is to have a good feel for boil-off rate, how much water you leave behind in the tun, and grain absorption when determining how much water you will actually use. Beer Smith gives me a good estimate for grain absorption, I know the ballpark for my kettle's boil-off, and I also know the volume my tun leaves behind, so I can get very close to the mash and sparge volumes I need for my target "Batch Size". I always start with a predetermined amount of water at room temp.

Beer Smith does not utilize trub loss automatically for determining gravity. You have to either change efficiency or batch size accordingly. Trub is mostly liquid, so you leave behind pretty much that volume of wort. My suggestion is to not use the trub loss input and add your expected loss to your "Batch Size", as I mentioned previously. This avoids the confusion of how Beer Smith uses that trub loss input.

Ultimately, trub loss says "I am going to sacrifice this volume of wort in order to leave behind break/hop material", so you have to take that into account when formulating your recipe. Since the amount of trub you have is highly variable depending on recipe (a Helles may have minimal, a 5X IPA may be mostly trub), I find it useless to assign a generic value, because then you will be chasing "Total Efficiency" each brew session.

Next time, look at your recipe and make a judgement call on how much wort you want/expect to sacrifice in the name of keeping trub out of your fermenter, then tack that onto your "Batch Size". For your IPA, a 1.5-gallon trub loss will require 1.5 gallons-worth of additional ingredients in order to meet your desired 5.25 gallons of wort into the fermenter at your expected "Total Efficiency". Your actual batch size will be 6.75 gallons, and you will be sacrificing 1.5 gallons in the name of reduced trub.

Hopefully that is clear. Grain crush will also have an effect on efficiency, as IslandLizard mentioned, but if you get your grain crushed at the same place every time, you should be able to establish a typical efficiency, as long as you understand how to account for trub loss in Beer Smith. IMO, I think your boiloff rate isn't out of line, especially if it is based on your experience with your setup.

 

[storytyme]

And 1.5 gallons to trub loss is ridiculously high, as is the projected boil off of 1.5 gallon per hour.

I just re-tested the boil off rate. I went from 5 gal to 3.375 gal. The propane was on at 80%. The boil was a rolling boil. Any less propane the flame started to struggle. What would be your idea of an avg boil off rate? I was going to possibly upgrade my burner because it has been acting up lately. I get no blue flame out of it. Would this have anything to do with the boil off rate? Or am I just trying to justify a new burner?

 

[storytyme]

Now how's that crush you're getting from your brew store? Poor efficiency is usually due to a poor, coarse crush. Mill 2x or better yet, narrow the gap.

I am not concerned so much for the mash eff. as I have analyzed that one and am comfortable with the set-up. Over 40 batches doing all grain and my avg mash eff. is about 72%.

I think where I went wrong was when I got tired of using hop bags and a DIY hop spider. I use mainly leaf hops and I wanted to throw them into the kettle freely. So I bought a bazooka style screen for the kettle. I just completed a test with just water to see how much water is left in the kettle after draining.

with bazooka screen (kettle not tipped forward): 1.375 gal left
with bazooka screen (kettle tipped forward): .625 gal

I then attached my dip tube that bends to the side of the kettle that I used when I used hop bags/spider.

with dip-tube (kettle not tipped towards tube side): 6 oz
with dip-tube (kettle tipped towards tube side): <6 oz

I know with hop additions there will be a bit more liquid soaked up, but how much?

After my testing of this I am thinking I will tip kettle with screen on and set my trub loss to around .75 gal. Thoughts on this??

Thank you everyone for the ideas and thoughts. That is why I love this hobby!

 

[IslandLizard]

A gallon an hour is about average, but there's a lot of deviation of course, depending on equipment, environment, kettle size, etc. For 5 gallons 1.5 gallons boil off is on the high side.

Your burner may need cleaning, especially its orifice. Low outside temps can change the burner's behavior too, and causing higher boil off at the same time. Yellow flames means lack of air flow/supply for the amount of fuel. And sooty kettle bottoms.

 

[storytyme]

A gallon an hour is about average, but there's a lot of deviation of course, depending on equipment, environment, kettle size, etc. For 5 gallons 1.5 gallons boil off is on the high side.

Your burner may need cleaning, especially its orifice. Low outside temps can change the burner's behavior too, and causing higher boil off at the same time. Yellow flames means lack of air flow/supply for the amount of fuel. And sooty kettle bottoms.

Thanks IslandLizard. What burner do you use and are you happy with it?

I took the burner apart and cleaned it. I have also noticed that my propane tank has been putting out a lot of condensation. Once when the weather was a bit cooler (in the 40's) it actually froze the tank to the concrete.

 

[IslandLizard]

Read through this thread again, there are really good pointers on gravity and volume I think you've missed. A pre-boil gravity of 1.037 will not get you 1.080 in an hour boil. So either there's p!ss poor mash efficiency, not extracting enough points to make your wort, and/or too much pre-boil volume.

Don't forget, racking and trub losses are all at OG, so they'll give you less net beer. Any losses there are very costly, and that's where you can get most of your "savings." 3rd runnings pale in comparison. 1 qt of OG wort saved at 1.080 is the same as 1 gallon of 3rd runnings at 1.020, before boil. Then you have to boil off 3 qts of that to regain a qt at 1.080.

 

[gueykewl]

I am not concerned so much for the mash eff. as I have analyzed that one and am comfortable with the set-up. Over 40 batches doing all grain and my avg mash eff. is about 72%.



I think where I went wrong was when I got tired of using hop bags and a DIY hop spider. I use mainly leaf hops and I wanted to throw them into the kettle freely. So I bought a bazooka style screen for the kettle. I just completed a test with just water to see how much water is left in the kettle after draining.



with bazooka screen (kettle not tipped forward): 1.375 gal left

with bazooka screen (kettle tipped forward): .625 gal



I then attached my dip tube that bends to the side of the kettle that I used when I used hop bags/spider.



with dip-tube (kettle not tipped towards tube side): 6 oz

with dip-tube (kettle tipped towards tube side): <6 oz



I know with hop additions there will be a bit more liquid soaked up, but how much?



After my testing of this I am thinking I will tip kettle with screen on and set my trub loss to around .75 gal. Thoughts on this??



Thank you everyone for the ideas and thoughts. That is why I love this hobby!

If I were a commercial brewer I would definitely be watching my brew house efficiencies as it is an important factor in determining if I am making money or losing money. Since I am just a home brewer My number one priority is to make good, consistent beer.

That being said there are quite a few factors that determine accurate brew house efficiencies and that can change from beer style to equipment. Sometimes I may brew the same DIPA using pellets and then brew the same beer using leaf hops and hop bursting techniques huge which results in a huge difference in brewhouse efficiencies due to trub loss even with a whirlpool.

Best advice I can give is brew the beer, take accurate measurements, taste the beer, and keep detailed logs. Keeping detailed notes for each batch of beer is key to understanding your brewing process and identifying issues when problems do arise.

Brew beer and have fun!

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks IslandLizard. What burner do you use and are you happy with it?

I took the burner apart and cleaned it. I have also noticed that my propane tank has been putting out a lot of condensation. Once when the weather was a bit cooler (in the 40's) it actually froze the tank to the concrete.

I now mostly brew electric (induction) but have used, and still use occasionally, 2 Blichmann burners. I clean them regularly and give me nice blue flames and a ton of heat. Their burner elements are the same large banjo ones other manufacturers use in their housing. The distance from top of flames to pot (~2") is essential for good efficiency as is some form of windscreen (aluminum flashing). Any heat that escapes along the sides does no good to your wort.

Condensation and even freezing of your tank is a sign of high fuel use, probably more than you should. I can power my 2 burners off one 20# tank and not get a freeze-up.

Please take a look at Brew 365 (or BF's) mash calculator and punch in your numbers and see if they are anywhere near BS'. Printing out the "brew sheet" from BS makes me scratch my head each time... what is he thinking? Where's the information I really need, it's not on there.

 

[storytyme]

Read through this thread again, there are really good pointers on gravity and volume I think you've missed. A pre-boil gravity of 1.037 will not get you 1.080 in an hour boil. So either there's p!ss poor mash efficiency, not extracting enough points to make your wort, and/or too much pre-boil volume.

Don't forget, racking and trub losses are all at OG, so they'll give you less net beer. Any losses there are very costly, and that's where you can get most of your "savings." 3rd runnings pale in comparison. 1 qt of OG wort saved at 1.080 is the same as 1 gallon of 3rd runnings at 1.020, before boil. Then you have to boil off 3 qts of that to regain a qt at 1.080.

Some clarification on the 1.080 brew. That was the est. OG after I added 1.25 corn sugar and .44 lbs DME. If I deleted those out of the recipe it est. an OG of 1.065. My OG with the sugar and DME was 1.053.

On the grain bill without the added sugar and DME my pre-boil gravity gave me a mash eff. of 66%. A bit low, but not too bad.

I take my OG readings once it has been racked to the fermentor and aerated. Should I be doing this differently?

 

[storytyme]

I now mostly brew electric (induction) but have used, and still use occasionally, 2 Blichmann burners. I clean them regularly and give me nice blue flames and a ton of heat. Their burner elements are the same large banjo ones other manufacturers use in their housing. The distance from top of flames to pot (~2") is essential for good efficiency as is some form of windscreen (aluminum flashing). Any heat that escapes along the sides does no good to your wort.

Condensation and even freezing of your tank is a sign of high fuel use, probably more than you should. I can power my 2 burners off one 20# tank and not get a freeze-up.

Please take a look at Brew 365 (or BF's) mash calculator and punch in your numbers and see if they are anywhere near BS'. Printing out the "brew sheet" from BS makes me scratch my head each time... what is he thinking? Where's the information I really need, it's not on there.

I for sure will punch in those numbers. Thanks for the advice on the burners as well. Thanks again.

 

[storytyme]

If I were a commercial brewer I would definitely be watching my brew house efficiencies as it is an important factor in determining if I am making money or losing money. Since I am just a home brewer My number one priority is to make good, consistent beer.

That being said there are quite a few factors that determine accurate brew house efficiencies and that can change from beer style to equipment. Sometimes I may brew the same DIPA using pellets and then brew the same beer using leaf hops and hop bursting techniques huge which results in a huge difference in brewhouse efficiencies due to trub loss even with a whirlpool.

Best advice I can give is brew the beer, take accurate measurements, taste the beer, and keep detailed logs. Keeping detailed notes for each batch of beer is key to understanding your brewing process and identifying issues when problems do arise.


Brew beer and have fun!

I agree. To me taking something that is already pretty good in my opinion and improving it makes the hobby fun. Running numbers, understanding those numbers and truly getting behind the meaning of all if it intrigues me. Talking to people on here to get different perspectives and opinions is fun as well.

The great thing is I know my beer that I made will still be good even though it is now a pale and IPA instead of IPA and IIPA.

 

[bondra76]

All great tips here.

Just in general, I have learned with Brewsmith to measure volumes pretty much at every single step of the process. Getting a gallon or half gallon measuring cup helps a lot and so does having the wooden dowel for kettle measurements and I even marked off my glass carboy with permanent marker for a few brews.

It's taken me probably 3-4 brews being anal about measurements, but I finally have Brewsmith straight. There's a lot of science to that app and you just have to make sure you're inputting your data to figure it all out.

 

[storytyme]

I now mostly brew electric (induction) but have used, and still use occasionally, 2 Blichmann burners. I clean them regularly and give me nice blue flames and a ton of heat. Their burner elements are the same large banjo ones other manufacturers use in their housing. The distance from top of flames to pot (~2") is essential for good efficiency as is some form of windscreen (aluminum flashing). Any heat that escapes along the sides does no good to your wort.

I measured my burner distance to bottom of kettle (no flame) and it is 5.5". Like I said before the flame never gets blue, just orange. May have to get a new burner or raise it up a bit?

 

[IslandLizard]

I measured my burner distance to bottom of kettle (no flame) and it is 5.5". Like I said before the flame never gets blue, just orange. May have to get a new burner or raise it up a bit?

The shorter distance and a windshield will give you better heating efficiency, but won't change the color of your flame.

Yellow flames means the fuel doesn't burn completely, and produces carbon (soot) that glows (burns) yellow in the flame. You may be trying to eek more BTUs out of your burner than it is designed for by cranking up the gas supply, but there's not enough air (oxygen) available to burn the amount of propane delivered. You're simply wasting gas, while coating your kettle black.

If you want more power, a larger burner may be you best bet. Just don't stare blind on advertised BTUs, most are unsubstantiated marketing hype; higher numbers sell better. Those large banjo cast iron elements used in Bayou's KAB4, Blichmann's Top Tier, and other manufacturers' burners, are very common. The Blichmann delivers 72000 BTU at full bore (10psi). Here's a thread on some of the comparisons.