Back Sweetening, Bottling, and Sugar Calculations

[tomakana]

If you want the short version of this - is it reasonable to use the grams of sugar in the frozen concentrate's nutritional info to calculate the amount of "priming sugar" you're adding to a batch for bottle conditioning? Assuming that's fine, then simply pasteurizing before it fully conditions gets some back sweetening, correct?

Thanks....here's the original long-ass question before I found all the other info on the forum....

I'm about to experiment with back sweetening a 1-gallon batch of cider with frozen concentrate, letting it condition for a short time to carbonate, then pasteurizing. As I've been thinking through the process, I realized I could get to the amount of sugar I'm adding based on the nutritional info of the concentrate, which should tell me how worried I should be about bottle bombs if my timing is off or for some reason the pasteurization doesn't work. I know that doing the pasteurization itself comes with its own pressure risks, but can someone check my logic and tell me if I'm completely missing something regarding the actual conditioning side of it?

So, if I plug my info into a priming calculator, it tells me I need ~17g of table sugar (0.6oz) to achieve ~2.0 volumes of CO2 in one gallon of beer at 68F. Assuming the calculator is accurate for cider as well (that may be my first mistake), then if I put 17g of sugar in my bottling bucket and let it condition out, I'll have a carbonated cider - but the back-sweetening will be pointless because all the sugar is gone.

If I go up to heavily carbed (4.5 volumes), it says ~54g (1.9 oz) of table sugar - again, if I let it condition fully, lots of carbonation but no added sweetness. In either of these scenarios, a properly capped beer bottle should have no problems with the pressure.

So - the concentrate I'm using says there's 27g of sugar per 2oz of concentrate (or per 8oz of prepared juice). Therefore, if I added 2oz of concentrate to my gallon of cider, I'd be adding 27g of sugar, which based on the calculator would max me out at ~2.8 volumes of CO2 (assuming those sugars are fully fermentable). If I do that, and for some reason don't pasteurize, I shouldn't have to worry about bottle bombs or anything like that, should I? And as long as I pasteurize before it fully ferments out, I'll have some light carbonation as well as sweetness from whatever sugars are left?

Sorry if this is a really basic question - for some reason this has been puzzling me.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

You're exactly right. You can use the 'informational whatever' label on the container of juice in place of priming sugar (similarly, you can use unfermented wort of a specified gravity to carbonate kegs of beer).

I frequently have to do subtraction to figure out how old I am and often come up with different answers so do not trust my skills to double check your math. But, I do know you can use juice to carb.

However, I would be VERY cautious if ever carbing a standard bottle to 4.5 volumes. ESPECIALLY if you were to subject it to the stovetop pasteurization. Hope this is some sort of help. Cheers!

 

[tomakana]

You're exactly right. You can use the 'informational whatever' label on the container of juice in place of priming sugar (similarly, you can use unfermented wort of a specified gravity to carbonate kegs of beer).

I frequently have to do subtraction to figure out how old I am and often come up with different answers so do not trust my skills to double check your math. But, I do know you can use juice to carb.

However, I would be VERY cautious if ever carbing a standard bottle to 4.5 volumes. ESPECIALLY if you were to subject it to the stovetop pasteurization. Hope this is some sort of help. Cheers!

Thanks - not sure why that never really occurred to me, but it seemed so simple that I thought I must be wrong for some reason. I'm continually finding that this hobby isn't always as complicated as I make it sometimes.

And you can rest easy - the 4.5 vols was just an example...that would a little overboard, in my opinion! I'm really looking for a light carbonation with a little sweetness added back. This gets me what I need to play with it a little.

Appreciate the feedback!

 

[Chalkyt]

Have a look at the attachment to my post last week (25 September). It outlines the results of trying to "destruction test" bottles used when heat pasteurising. Basically, "standard" bottles that we use in Oz which I expect to be like Bud, Coors, MGD etc seem to handle over 160 psi. Generally, less than 3 volumes of CO2 and pasteurising temperature below 70C will keep pressure below this. However, there is a really useful carbonation table (excel spreadsheet) on Andrew Lea's web site (http://www.cider.org.uk/carbonation_table.xls) which calculates bottle pressure at different temperatures for different levels of carbonation.

I have had success when adding sugar etc by working on SG change rather than trying to calculate amounts. Using the "rule of thumb" that one SG point consumed by fermentation results in 0.5 volumes of CO2, then for 2.5 volumes you need to ferment five SG points. While most yeasts ferment down to 1.000 (or below), my go-to (SO4) often finishes around 1.003 with a little residual sweetness, so I need to bottle at 1.008 for 2.5 volumes of CO2. Otherwise for a different yeast expected to finish at 1.000, I would bottle at 1.005. If fully fermenting and adding sugar, the Brewer's Friend calculator is a good starting guide for just how much sugar to add.

For my recent slightly sweet carbonated cider using SO4, I bottled at 1.010 and pasteurised at 2.5 bar (45 psi) which was around 1.005. It is relatively easy to monitor carbonation with a "squeeze test" plastic bottle or a glass bottle with a pressure gauge fitted. I use a Grolsch bottle with a hole tapped in the stopper to take the gauge, then pasteurise when the pressure is 2.5 bar or 45 psi. I then have to drink the contents of the Grolsch bottle in the interest of Quality Control!

Good luck and have fun!

 

[tomakana]

Have a look at the attachment to my post last week (25 September). It outlines the results of trying to "destruction test" bottles used when heat pasteurising. Basically, "standard" bottles that we use in Oz which I expect to be like Bud, Coors, MGD etc seem to handle over 160 psi. Generally, less than 3 volumes of CO2 and pasteurising temperature below 70C will keep pressure below this. However, there is a really useful carbonation table (excel spreadsheet) on Andrew Lea's web site (http://www.cider.org.uk/carbonation_table.xls) which calculates bottle pressure at different temperatures for different levels of carbonation.

I have had success when adding sugar etc by working on SG change rather than trying to calculate amounts. Using the "rule of thumb" that one SG point consumed by fermentation results in 0.5 volumes of CO2, then for 2.5 volumes you need to ferment five SG points. While most yeasts ferment down to 1.000 (or below), my go-to (SO4) often finishes around 1.003 with a little residual sweetness, so I need to bottle at 1.008 for 2.5 volumes of CO2. Otherwise for a different yeast expected to finish at 1.000, I would bottle at 1.005. If fully fermenting and adding sugar, the Brewer's Friend calculator is a good starting guide for just how much sugar to add.

For my recent slightly sweet carbonated cider using SO4, I bottled at 1.010 and pasteurised at 2.5 bar (45 psi) which was around 1.005. It is relatively easy to monitor carbonation with a "squeeze test" plastic bottle or a glass bottle with a pressure gauge fitted. I use a Grolsch bottle with a hole tapped in the stopper to take the gauge, then pasteurise when the pressure is 2.5 bar or 45 psi. I then have to drink the contents of the Grolsch bottle in the interest of Quality Control!

Good luck and have fun!

View attachment 700973

Great information, thanks! Like the pressure gauge set up as well. May be on my next project list....

Appreciate it!