Avoiding carbonation creep ???

[Wheelspin]

I often find that after fermenting for 3 weeks then bottling and bottle conditioning for another 2 weeks my carbonation is intially pretty good.

However, after 8 weeks or so some brews in bottles become very feisty - read gushers. Very often with Weis beers but even with some IPA's. This i supposes is down to carbonation creep where the bottles continue carbonating ever so slowly over time.

I now have a kegging system and wondered how carbonation would turn out if I fermented in the fermenter for the customary 3 weeks then racked to a keg for 3 weeks 'forced" carbonation at 12 PSI. Then bottled from the keg.

Question is : Would the beer then be sufficiently fermented out so as not to allow further carbonation in the bottle ?

Or should I be looking at filtering to take out all remaining yeast ?

Or does cold crashing help with this problem ?

Your suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

[boydster]

Could it be a bottle infection? The fact that it is only some of the bottles makes me think that is a possibility. Either that, or an uneven mix of priming sugar and those gushers are the unlucky bottles that got too much sugar. The first issue, kegs won't help. The second, bottling from the keg may work.

 

[homebrewhaha]

the fact that some brews become more carbonated than others leads me to believe it has to do with either sanitation (but the beer would likely taste slightly off) or that your priming sugar might not be evenly distributed through your bottles.

When you're racking into a bottling bucket that has your (previously boiled) priming sugar, the hose should do a decent job of stirring the sugar into an even mix. Just to be sure, you can take a sanitized paddle or something and gently stir the beer/sugar in the bottling bucket in before you start filling your bottles.

What's your process like for bottle conditioning?

Another thing is, if you're going by a standard like XX oz. of sugar for a 5-gallon batch, you're most likely adding too much priming sugar. Use software or online resources to help you calculate how much sugar you actually need to carbonate X gallons to Y volumes of carbonation, with consideration for style factored in (e.g. British beers tend to have less carbonation).

I don't keg, so I don't have any good information on that, but (assuming your beer is clean) you shouldn't see the beer increasing in carbonation like bottle conditioning does if you bottle from a keg. Hope that helps.

 

[Wheelspin]

Thanks guys.

All suggestions make sense however a few things.

a) I don't think there's infection, everything still tastes great, no off smells.
b) Stirring my priming sugar in. I do stir, in fact maybe too vigorously.
c) It's not individual bottles that eventually get over carbonated it's whole batches. But as I say, it takes about 3 months for this to happen.
d) I do use the Brewers Friend calculator for carbonation usually at around 2 or 2.2 vols CO2. So my sugar levels are quite low.

Maybe unless filtered, beer will always continue to ferment, albeit slowly ?

Could a good cold crashing help ?

 

[jbaysurfer]

Thanks guys.

All suggestions make sense however a few things.

a) I don't think there's infection, everything still tastes great, no off smells.
b) Stirring my priming sugar in. I do stir, in fact maybe too vigorously.
c) It's not individual bottles that eventually get over carbonated it's whole batches. But as I say, it takes about 3 months for this to happen.
d) I do use the Brewers Friend calculator for carbonation usually at around 2 or 2.2 vols CO2. So my sugar levels are quite low.

Maybe unless filtered, beer will always continue to ferment, albeit slowly ?

Could a good cold crashing help ?

Cold Crashing will slow yeast, not kill them off, so there's some validity to the idea that over time, especially at fermentation temperatures, the yeast will continue to work. If you've gotten your carb levels where you want them, the safest action is to cold crash those bottles, then be sure to store them refrigerated, or at the very least in temps below those that the yeast prefer.

After all, it's fermentation itself that creates carbonation, so if you're not over priming, if you're being sure to mix your priming bucket well so the sugar distribution on the batch is even, and if you're not dealing with infections...the only thing left is the fact that the yeast are just continuing to work. Put em in the fridge and they'll generally go to sleep.

 

[Wheelspin]

Jbaysurfer, I take it that your name refers to Jeffreys Bay South Africa. I spent many, many a weekend at Jeffreys Bay and Seal Point in the 70's and 80's surfing my little brain off. Good times !

Back to the subject, I brew 10 gal batches every 3rd week or so so don't have really have space to keep everything refrigerated. Guess I should start looking at building a cold room. I already have 3 big chest freezers with ST1000 controllers.

This saving money on home brewing is costing me an absolute fortune.

 

[morticaixavier]

It sounds like you might not be waiting long enough to package. if you are getting continued fermentation it means there are still fermentable sugars in the beer. If you wait to package until there are no more fermentables in the beer then the only sugars available are those you add as priming. once the yeast are done with these there will be no further fermentation and therefore no further increase in carbonation.

I know it SEEMS like 3 weeks should be enough and it should but that's no guarantee. I've had beers take a month or more to finish. they can go pretty slow on those last few points.

the only way to tell is to take several gravity readings several days apart and have no change.

If you do this and still get gushers months down the road then start looking at infection.

 

[Wheelspin]

I think you're right.

I'm going to start extending my primary fermentation to at least 4 weeks.

 

[Terrytate]

Heyo. It is Brett. For sure a wild yeast. It takes a while to show up, months, but the taste change is subtle in the beginning. Drink one next to a commercial beer and it will seem thin since the Brett ate all the body out. Listen to the brewing network and you'll here all about it. As for fermentation, ales are 7 to 10 days, no way do you need 4 weeks. I had your issue and thought the same thing, but after listening to the being network I learned. It ended up being my bottling spigot.

Good luck.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Home Brew mobile app

 

[morticaixavier]

Heyo. It is Brett. For sure a wild yeast. It takes a while to show up, months, but the taste change is subtle in the beginning. Drink one next to a commercial beer and it will seem thin since the Brett ate all the body out. Listen to the brewing network and you'll here all about it. As for fermentation, ales are 7 to 10 days, no way do you need 4 weeks. I had your issue and thought the same thing, but after listening to the being network I learned. It ended up being my bottling spigot.

Good luck.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Home Brew mobile app

It might be but that is far from the only reason this might happen.

 

[cjgenever]

Yeast will not continue to ferment for no good reason, only bacteria will do that. The yeast will not go dormant until they've exhausted the food supply, unless you cause it to by crashing. A small introduction of bacteria will operate slowly, over months or years. If one were to over prime and store at a low temperature these results could be duplicated, as would introducing bacteria at bottling.

I'd suggest fast ferment tests if your concerned about unfinished fermentations.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[taoisilent]

It sounds like you might not be waiting long enough to package. if you are getting continued fermentation it means there are still fermentable sugars in the beer. If you wait to package until there are no more fermentables in the beer then the only sugars available are those you add as priming. once the yeast are done with these there will be no further fermentation and therefore no further increase in carbonation.

I know it SEEMS like 3 weeks should be enough and it should but that's no guarantee. I've had beers take a month or more to finish. they can go pretty slow on those last few points.

the only way to tell is to take several gravity readings several days apart and have no change.

If you do this and still get gushers months down the road then start looking at infection.

This is much more likely than infection, IMHO

 

[signpost]

I'd bet you are over-carbing.

When you use a calculator, it asks for the temperature of the beer, right? That info is used to estimate the amount of carbonation left in the beer from the primary fermentation.

Chances are, you are over-estimating the temperature your beer got to and thus underestimating the amount of residual carbonation. That means that even at relatively low vols, the calculators will still tell you to add more priming sugar than you need.

That's my theory, anyway.

 

[jbaysurfer]

Jbaysurfer, I take it that your name refers to Jeffreys Bay South Africa. I spent many, many a weekend at Jeffreys Bay and Seal Point in the 70's and 80's surfing my little brain off. Good times !

Back to the subject, I brew 10 gal batches every 3rd week or so so don't have really have space to keep everything refrigerated. Guess I should start looking at building a cold room. I already have 3 big chest freezers with ST1000 controllers.

This saving money on home brewing is costing me an absolute fortune.

LOL @ the last line! Would you mind if I used that quote in my sig line?

Yes, my screenname is a reference to Jeffrey's Bay. I'm exceedingly jealous of you. I actually got the nickname Jbay based on my name and the fact that for years, I could rip rights like nobody's business but was a mental midget when it came to surfing lefts. I've actually never surfed JBay...it's a bucket list thing...but Rincon is right here at home, and when I go visit my friends on Kauai, they all know Jbay's gonna want to surf the right at Hanalei!

You're getting lots of good advice here, I'd probably check the very last post (from Signpost) before I started building a cold room

Also, I personally don't think it's an infection. People for some reason always jump to that conclusion when most of the time that's not the case. There's the notion of "gusher"="infection". But sometimes it just means "overcarbed". I'm still putting my money on the latter, and I don't know if it's been said, but you have to make sure your sugar is completely evenly mixed when you bottle. You mentioned that the problem is with "some brews" which to me indicates incomplete mixing when you prime.

I also completely agree with the folks telling you to leave your beer in primary for longer, at least another week for most ales. All but the biggest, most stubborn ales will be done by then, and it simply can't hurt to wait another week, but take it all with a grain of salt...that's merely the opinion of a guy who hasn't tasted the beer GL!

 

[boydster]

I think you're right.

I'm going to start extending my primary fermentation to at least 4 weeks.

Even better: use a hydrometer and eliminate the guesswork. Take 2 readings over a 3 day span, and if they match, it's done.

 

[fartinmartin]

There's a difference between gushers and over carbing.
When you take the cap of a bottle that is over carbed, it will pop and give a good hiss .
A gusher will have a normal sound when the cap comes of and a normal hiss, but immediately will make loads of fizz right at the bottom of the bottle, it like it's raising a head from the bottom of the bottle and just gushes up and out of the bottle. I put the gusher down to sanitation or some carry over of the dry hop into the bottle as I've seen what I think are bits of hop residue being the sight of the bubble activity.

 

[jbaysurfer]

There's a difference between gushers and over carbing.
When you take the cap of a bottle that is over carbed, it will pop and give a good hiss .
A gusher will have a normal sound when the cap comes of and a normal hiss, but immediately will make loads of fizz right at the bottom of the bottle, it like it's raising a head from the bottom of the bottle and just gushes up and out of the bottle. I put the gusher down to sanitation or some carry over of the dry hop into the bottle as I've seen what I think are bits of hop residue being the sight of the bubble activity.

While there's a limit to how explanatory I'm going to make one post, I totally agree, and the problem comes when people don't actually know things like what you just wrote (what a true gusher looks like vs. a bottle that over carbed).

Also fwiw, I have seen bottled beer where the brewer put a hop pellet in it, and while it's not a "gusher" as far as "infection" goes, it most certainly creates what are known as nucleation sites for the CO2 and creates a bottle overflow (usually more slowly then a true "gusher") but it's not infection. Most hop debris is acidic, so infection being introduced that way is kinda rare.

 

[signpost]

Also, if you aren't storing your beer cold (I sure don't, not enough fridge space), then you may get uneven results based solely on the amount of fridge time the beers get before you crack them open.

The main purpose for cold conditioning (as far as I can tell) is to allow the beer to absorb the CO2 thoroughly. If you throw a beer in the fridge in the morning and crack it open in the afternoon, a bunch of CO2 will just escape as soon as you pop the top. That means that beer will have slightly lower carbonation.

If you put a beer in the fridge on Monday and open it up on Friday, it will have had more time for the CO2 to dissolve into solution and will retain that carbonation better when you pour it into a glass.

Another possible explanation why the beers seem to get more carbonated over time is that you may be storing them at a slightly cooler temperature that leads to a slower fermentation of the priming sugar. That would mean that when you drink the first few and think the carbonation is right on, the yeast still haven't finished up the priming sugar you added and keep working slowly.

 

[PRE66_6TART]

I've had this exact same problem and I assumed the problem was my temp control. My fermentations temps drop by a few degrees as fermentation winds down and stops creating heat, and I think the yeast are flocculating a smidge early because of that. Also I bottle condition in a different room that is warmer than where I ferment, so I think if they sit long enough in the warmer room the yeast slowly finish off the small amount of sugar they left behind. I'm going to try raising the temp at the end of fermentation to see if that fixes the problem. I also tend to use highly flocculant yeast. I don't know if any of this applies to you but I thought I would put it out there in case it helps.