Augustiner Helles vs. Von Trapp Helles

[joenearboston]

Have you ever had an Augustiner Helles? Some say it is the best Helles. There is a remarkable difference between a beer like Augustiner Helles and other Helles out there like a Von Trapp Helles. The former has a super smooth finish whereas the latter has somewhat of a harsher grainy/husky finish.

My helles lagers homebrews have a very similar flavor profile to Von Trapp Helles that I'm trying to remove. I think my lagers are to style, so this is not necessarily a flaw, they have medaled in a few competitions including first place. However, I want to have a flavor profile more like Augustiner and less like Von Trapp.

My recipe is below. I don't think it is the usual suspects. I'm definitely managing pH, using seasoned RO water, keeping sparge above 1.010, not sparging for a long time, and pretty much all the other common issues that lead to astringency and grainyness.

The only thing I can think of is grain supplier. I believe both Von Trapp and Augustiner do a decoction, so that can't be the missing variable.

Grain
96%, 6 lbs German Pilsner (for flavor)
4%, .25 lbs Carapils (for body and sweetness)

Water
Distilled
¼ tsp CaCl per 3 gallon
¼ tsp Gypsum per 3 gallon
1.0 ml phosphoric acid per 3 gallons

Mash
149F for 30 minutes
158F for 30 minutes

Boil
.6 ml hop shot for IBU of 10

Ferment
Set controller at 50F for 1 week, rest at 65F, condition at 45F
OG 1.050, FG 1.012

 

[Iseneye]

You will be struggling to make a beer the same as Augustiner as it is a low oxygen brewery that spunds and does pH adjustments with sauergut.

However, I suggest dumping the carapils and replacing with 8% carahell and get rid of the gypsum. Also get the IBU up to 18 as 10 is very low.

I would also do low temp fermentation for the whole process as long as you have a big enough starter.

 

[Vale71]

Augustiner Helles is the cheapest beer in Munich, the one you'll see hobos drinking in the morning. It's also well known for its rotten eggs aroma (comes from fermentation), that might be what you're missing.
They don't do decoction but a single step mash with wet milling and use a mash filter for sparging. Fermentation is under pressure at ale temperatures. If you want something better try and get your hands on an Augustiner Edelstoff.

 

[couchsending]

Lower ferm temps
Don’t do the diacetyl rest
Spund or Krausen
Lager for 8 weeks

Augustiner yeast is Imperial Harvest. It works well at warmer temps.

I thought they still open fermented? No?

I hate their yeast personally and can’t get it to not produce lots of sulfur.

Big fan of the Andechs yeast. German Lager X from White Labs.

 

[Vale71]

I thought they still open fermented? No?

Not since 1971.

 

[Miraculix]

I remember reading in a German forum that augustiner is somehow separating the husk from the grain and then mashess without husks. They then do something like a tea with the husks which then is added back at a controlled rate, later in the brewing process. They do this to get the particular flavour, which matches your described difference between the two helles.

 

[Vale71]

You can do that but not with wet milling.

 

[Miraculix]

Well, apparently they do a Spelzentrennung. I read nowhere something about wet milling.

 

[joenearboston]

Miraculix,
I will try Spelzentrennung (remove husks, soak to remove tannin, drain, add back in).
The flavor I'm trying to get rid of is definitely husky/grainy (even though I'm hitting my temps, pH, and not over sparging).
Try a Von Trapp Helles and you will see the flavor I'm trying to get rid of. Makes total sense now.

Iseneye,
Thanks for ideas. I may try low oxygen techniques as well. I am splashing a bit in mash.

Vale71,
Whoa...that is so funny. I need to go to Munich now.

 

[Miraculix]

Miraculix,
I will try Spelzentrennung (remove husks, soak to remove tannin, drain, add back in).
The flavor I'm trying to get rid of is definitely husky/grainy (even though I'm hitting my temps, pH, and not over sparging).
Try a Von Trapp Helles and you will see the flavor I'm trying to get rid of. Makes total sense now.

Iseneye,
Thanks for ideas. I may try low oxygen techniques as well. I am splashing a bit in mash.

Vale71,
Whoa...that is so funny. I need to go to Munich now.

I am not sure if they do it the way you described it. I think they brew kind of a tea with the husks and then add the tea partially to the wort, but again, I have no proof, except for the German forums.

 

[skw]

Augustiner makes its own malt (Tennenmalz), so there's one ingredient that you will not be able to find on the market.

 

[Bassman2003]

My favorite pint of Ag. Helles was actually in Venice 2012. I guy in a little stall had some on tap and it was probably the best glass of beer I have ever had. But, on my last trip to Munich I did notice too much Sulphur aroma in the helles at the Ag. location that used to be where the horse stables were located. I was quite disappointed. Also, unless you are in Germany to compare, it is kind of useless to use a US version to model after. (If they export it to the US).

 

[Vale71]

Augustiner buys its malt in bulk, mostly from Donau Malz, but it is indeed malted to their very strict specs. The Tennenmälzerei is used, if at all, maybe just for the Edelstoff which is a very small production.

 

[Vale71]

I am not sure if they do it the way you described it. I think they brew kind of a tea with the husks and then add the tea partially to the wort, but again, I have no proof, except for the German forums.

Spelzentrennung doesn't work like that. Even with the most expensive six-roller mill there will be starch in the husks that will need converting and extracting. When the husks are separated they are always added late in the mash (avoiding any decoction steps if applicable) for full conversion and extraction.
If Augustiner does it at all then it's probably for the Edelstoff. The Helles is a mass product and its brewing process is aimed at maximum efficiency and cost reduction. So, wet milling, single step infusion, and mash filter. This gives you up to 98% efficiency and also lets you turn out up to 12 batches/day.
Sorry to burst anybody's bubble but that's the reality of it. BTW my favorite of the Munich beers is the Hofbräu Helles. But the food at Augustiner's is definitely better, so...

 

[Miraculix]

Spelzentrennung doesn't work like that. Even with the most expensive six-roller mill there will be starch in the husks that will need converting and extracting. When the husks are separated they are always added late in the mash (avoiding any decoction steps if applicable) for full conversion and extraction.
If Augustiner does it at all then it's probably for the Edelstoff. The Helles is a mass product and its brewing process is aimed at maximum efficiency and cost reduction. So, wet milling, single step infusion, and mash filter. This gives you up to 98% efficiency and also lets you turn out up to 12 batches/day.
Sorry to burst anybody's bubble but that's the reality of it. BTW my favorite of the Munich beers is the Hofbräu Helles. But the food at Augustiner's is definitely better, so...

Ok, then the tea is added back to the mash and not to the wort, same result.

But again, I only have the Info from several German forums, haven't worked in the brewery myself. Have you?

 

[Vale71]

No, but some of my teachers did.
And I've seen the specs for Augustiner malt, but my lips are sealed forever....

 

[Miraculix]

No, but some of my teachers did.
And I've seen the specs for Augustiner malt, but my lips are sealed forever....

Hahaha, now that you have publicly spoken you have to be afraid of the Bavarian ninja guardians of the Augustiners secrets! You are on the radar!

 

[skw]

No, but some of my teachers did.
And I've seen the specs for Augustiner malt, but my lips are sealed forever....

That's fine, leave your lips sealed. Just type with your hands instead.

 

[skw]

Augustiner Helles is the cheapest beer in Munich, the one you'll see hobos drinking in the morning. It's also well known for its rotten eggs aroma (comes from fermentation), that might be what you're missing.
They don't do decoction but a single step mash with wet milling and use a mash filter for sparging. Fermentation is under pressure at ale temperatures.

Post this in a German brewing forum and they'll chase you out with pitchforks. Helles at ale temperatures? Heresy!