Are closed transfers worth the extra effort?

[day_trippr]

Why does everyone believe in the principle of diffusion on this thread, yet objects to pouring priming solution into a primary fermenter, mixing gently without disturbing the cake, then waiting say 30 minutes and bottling straight out of primary?[...]

I don't bottle so I'm unfamiliar with what folks object to with that. Does "everyone" believe there's an oxygen-exposure issue that's somehow different from racking to a bottling bucket and mixing there...or is it more a matter of excessive trub making it into bottles due to mixing primer in a fermentor?

Cheers!

 

[Big Monk]

I don't bottle so I'm unfamiliar with what folks object to with that. Does "everyone" believe there's an oxygen-exposure issue that's somehow different from racking to a bottling bucket and mixing there...or is it more a matter of excessive trub making it into bottles due to mixing primer in a fermentor?

Cheers!

I bottle a few points shy (I don’t wing it, I calculate very rigorously) of final gravity on my LO batches. On normal batches (yes I still do those as well in a pinch) I dose each bottle with a priming solution in a syringe then bottle off the primary.

 

[day_trippr]

Umm....ok, so not a believer in mixing primer into a primary.
Duly noted, I suspect I'd take the same position.
Waiting on WB's take...

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

Why does everyone believe in the principle of diffusion on this thread, yet objects to pouring priming solution into a primary fermenter, mixing gently without disturbing the cake, then waiting say 30 minutes and bottling straight out of primary?

It has worked fine for me, but most will swear you NEED to use a bottling bucket....
Same concept...

Yes, diffusion in solutions works just like diffusion in gases, it just takes a lot longer. Stirring obviously greatly speeds up mixing. If you're not seeing bottle to bottle differences in your carb levels, then you are mixing the priming sugar well enough.

Brew on

 

[SoCal-Doug]

One of the best investments I ever made in brewing was a counter pressure bottle filler. Hate bottling. Still hate it. But competitions don't take kegs and sometimes the beer-ho friends need a to-go container

 

[Andrew7447]

Why does everyone believe in the principle of diffusion on this thread, yet objects to pouring priming solution into a primary fermenter, mixing gently without disturbing the cake, then waiting say 30 minutes and bottling straight out of primary?

It has worked fine for me, but most will swear you NEED to use a bottling bucket....
Same concept...

Tried this once. I didnt have constant carbonation. Maybe im crazy.

 

[eric19312]

Why don't you buy a manifold and purge all 3 kegs simultaneously at 20 PSI (should like less than 10 minutes), and cold crash your beer before kegging, or add a filter to the end of your racking cane to prevent hop debris from getting in?

Also on your leak, disconnect all your kegs from your CO2 system but keep the lines charged, and then shut off the gas from the tank. If the lines hold pressure overnight then you know the problem is either in one of your kegs or at the gas post on one of them

Thanks
Not sure I understand the idea behind the manifold. Would I need 15 gallons of star san to purge 3 kegs at same time? The way I do it now is keg to keg with only 5 gallons.

I'll get that leak I'm sure but while I have no intention of going back to bottling after kegging about 100 batches I still do find the kegging process tedious. It was not so bad when I brewed with a friend about every other week and could keg and brew on same day. But I'm brewing solo about every 5-6 weeks these days and that means kegging is it's own mini brew day.

 

[TheMadKing]

Thanks
Not sure I understand the idea behind the manifold. Would I need 15 gallons of star san to purge 3 kegs at same time? The way I do it now is keg to keg with only 5 gallons.

I'll get that leak I'm sure but while I have no intention of going back to bottling after kegging about 100 batches I still do find the kegging process tedious. It was not so bad when I brewed with a friend about every other week and could keg and brew on same day. But I'm brewing solo about every 5-6 weeks these days and that means kegging is it's own mini brew day.

Kegging should really never take more than 30 minutes... If it takes that much effort I think you may have a process issue. I do a closed transfer under CO2 pressure with 5 gallons batches and it takes 10-15 minutes or so. I keep my kegs stored full of star san, so I just have to push it out, pop the beer transfer line onto the poppet, attach CO2 to my fermentor input port, set the pressure at 2 PSI and have a beer.

Yes you would need to make 15 gallons of starsan to purge all 3 kegs simultaneously, but you could push it all out into 5 gallon buckets and re-use it several times. The time savings alone are worth the $1.50 extra in Star San cost and $15 in home depot buckets.

What is the long time suck during your kegging process that's making it take hours?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Kegging should really never take more than 30 minutes... If it takes that much effort I think you may have a process issue. I do a closed transfer under CO2 pressure with 5 gallons batches and it takes 10-15 minutes or so. I keep my kegs stored full of star san, so I just have to push it out, pop the beer transfer line onto the poppet, attach CO2 to my fermentor input port, set the pressure at 2 PSI and have a beer.

Yes you would need to make 15 gallons of starsan to purge all 3 kegs simultaneously, but you could push it all out into 5 gallon buckets and re-use it several times. The time savings alone are worth the $1.50 extra in Star San cost and $15 in home depot buckets.

What is the long time suck during your kegging process that's making it take hours?

If you connect the 3 kegs in series, or what some call “daisy chain”, couldn’t you purge all 3 w/ say 5.5 gallons of star San?

 

[TheMadKing]

If you connect the 3 kegs in series, or what some call “daisy chain”, couldn’t you purge all 3 w/ say 5.5 gallons of star San?

Absolutely! Which is what he currently does, but he was saying that his kegging routine was taking too long (90+ minutes), so my suggestion was a time saving measure

 

[eric19312]

Kegging should really never take more than 30 minutes... If it takes that much effort I think you may have a process issue. I do a closed transfer under CO2 pressure with 5 gallons batches and it takes 10-15 minutes or so. I keep my kegs stored full of star san, so I just have to push it out, pop the beer transfer line onto the poppet, attach CO2 to my fermentor input port, set the pressure at 2 PSI and have a beer.

Yes you would need to make 15 gallons of starsan to purge all 3 kegs simultaneously, but you could push it all out into 5 gallon buckets and re-use it several times. The time savings alone are worth the $1.50 extra in Star San cost and $15 in home depot buckets.

What is the long time suck during your kegging process that's making it take hours?

I know you mentioned cold crashing, I do cold crash to about 35F over two days before kegging and usually fine with gelatin about half way through the cold crash.

I usually clean a few kegs at start of filling operation. When a keg kicks I pull it from keezer but keep it pressurized. Then on kegging day I clean all dirty kegs. Disassemble posts and poppets, rinse well, run on Mark II keg washer with hot PBW for 10 min, rinse well, reassemble. Some of the steps can be done in parallel but if I have 3-4 kegs that need to be cleaned this process will take up to an hour.

Once I have two clean kegs first is filled with starsan. Usually do make a new batch which is a few minutes. I then use combination of gravity and CO2 at about 5 psi to push the starsan from keg to keg. This takes about 10 min per keg. I'm now about 90 minutes into packaging day and have 3 purged kegs and probably a fourth clean keg full of star-san.

While those are going I will also get my beer transfer line ready and sanitize fittings between fermentor and transfer line. Then hook up pressure to the fermentor, give a bit of pressure and start transfering. If I am very lucky this will take about 20 minutes per keg. If I get a clogged poppet it will take much longer as I will have to stop the transfer, disassemble the poppet, sanitize, reassemble and start transferring again. All while cursing the fact that my closed transfer has been compromised and knowing full well that if it clogged once it is probably going to clog again. Most beers I make I get a clogged poppet. These are typically ales with about 6oz dry hop in the fermentor. I do try to turn my diptube to be pulling beer from above the trub but doesnt take much of that hop material to clog the poppet.

So anyway on a good day the filling of the kegs is a 60 minute project and I'm at 2.5 hours. Then I harvest or dump the yeast and clean the fermentor. By the time everything is clean, packed and put away, full kegs are loaded into keezer and hooked up to pressure I am over 3 hours and if I did a good job with cleanup probably over that.

 

[TheMadKing]

I know you mentioned cold crashing, I do cold crash to about 35F over two days before kegging and usually fine with gelatin about half way through the cold crash.

I usually clean a few kegs at start of filling operation. When a keg kicks I pull it from keezer but keep it pressurized. Then on kegging day I clean all dirty kegs. Disassemble posts and poppets, rinse well, run on Mark II keg washer with hot PBW for 10 min, rinse well, reassemble. Some of the steps can be done in parallel but if I have 3-4 kegs that need to be cleaned this process will take up to an hour.

Once I have two clean kegs first is filled with starsan. Usually do make a new batch which is a few minutes. I then use combination of gravity and CO2 at about 5 psi to push the starsan from keg to keg. This takes about 10 min per keg. I'm now about 90 minutes into packaging day and have 3 purged kegs and probably a fourth clean keg full of star-san.

While those are going I will also get my beer transfer line ready and sanitize fittings between fermentor and transfer line. Then hook up pressure to the fermentor, give a bit of pressure and start transfering. If I am very lucky this will take about 20 minutes per keg. If I get a clogged poppet it will take much longer as I will have to stop the transfer, disassemble the poppet, sanitize, reassemble and start transferring again. All while cursing the fact that my closed transfer has been compromised and knowing full well that if it clogged once it is probably going to clog again. Most beers I make I get a clogged poppet. These are typically ales with about 6oz dry hop in the fermentor. I do try to turn my diptube to be pulling beer from above the trub but doesnt take much of that hop material to clog the poppet.

So anyway on a good day the filling of the kegs is a 60 minute project and I'm at 2.5 hours. Then I harvest or dump the yeast and clean the fermentor. By the time everything is clean, packed and put away, full kegs are loaded into keezer and hooked up to pressure I am over 3 hours and if I did a good job with cleanup probably over that.

So a few suggestions based on this:

It sounds like you are cleaning excessively and saving it all up for your kegging day.

When I clean my kegs, I clean based on what beer was in it beforehand. Unless it had some crazy flavors in it, I usually just rinse everything with hot water 2-3 times and fill it with Star San. I only break down my poppets about every 3-4 batches and usually I'll soak them and the keg in oxyclean overnight, rinse and reassemble and fill it with Star San the next day. So if you do the cleaning as you go, that will save you a ton of time on kegging day.

You can save a little time by increasing your CO2 pressure for pushing the Start San out. If you do all 3 kegs in parallel that's 20 minutes saved right there.

You can also use your beer transfer line for the star san push, so it's already sanitized by the time your kegs are purged.

You could try dry hopping using a mesh bag, or put a filter on the end of your racking cane. I've never experienced a clogged poppet before but it sounds like something that should be avoided at all costs.

You could also use larger diameter lines for transferring. There's no reason to use 3/16" lines on uncarbonated beer or starsan. Also you could try turning up the PSI on your transfer to push the beer in a little faster. If you daisychain your kegs during the fill process you can also fill all 3 kegs without moving any connections.

Even with 4 kegs you should be able to get your kegging day time down around an hour I would think. Parallel work and prep work go a long way to reducing task time.

 

[doug293cz]

If you connect the 3 kegs in series, or what some call “daisy chain”, couldn’t you purge all 3 w/ say 5.5 gallons of star San?

No. Think about what happens. Beer out on first keg connected to gas in on second keg, beer out on second keg connected to gas in on third keg, and beer out on third keg empties to bucket. Start pushing gas into first keg - SS goes into second keg, but as soon as the level reaches the dip tube, SS starts getting pushed to the third keg. Same thing happens in the third keg. Kegs two and three never fill up with SS. When pushing SS from one keg to another, you have to connect beer out to beer out, and then move the CO2 to the second keg to empty it.

Brew on

 

[eric19312]

So a few suggestions based on this:

It sounds like you are cleaning excessively and saving it all up for your kegging day.

When I clean my kegs, I clean based on what beer was in it beforehand. Unless it had some crazy flavors in it, I usually just rinse everything with hot water 2-3 times and fill it with Star San. I only break down my poppets about every 3-4 batches and usually I'll soak them and the keg in oxyclean overnight, rinse and reassemble and fill it with Star San the next day. So if you do the cleaning as you go, that will save you a ton of time on kegging day.

You can save a little time by increasing your CO2 pressure for pushing the Start San out. If you do all 3 kegs in parallel that's 20 minutes saved right there.

You can also use your beer transfer line for the star san push, so it's already sanitized by the time your kegs are purged.

You could try dry hopping using a mesh bag, or put a filter on the end of your racking cane. I've never experienced a clogged poppet before but it sounds like something that should be avoided at all costs.

You could also use larger diameter lines for transferring. There's no reason to use 3/16" lines on uncarbonated beer or starsan. Also you could try turning up the PSI on your transfer to push the beer in a little faster. If you daisychain your kegs during the fill process you can also fill all 3 kegs without moving any connections.

Even with 4 kegs you should be able to get your kegging day time down around an hour I would think. Parallel work and prep work go a long way to reducing task time.

OK thanks for this I'm starting to see the light

1 - I will clean as I go on the kegs and stop saving that job for kegging day. I will probably continue to break down poppets every batch until I get a handle on the clogging issue but storing kegs full of star-san until kegging day sounds like a decent plan and the manifold idea makes sense in that context.

2 - I'll invest in some bags for dry hopping and see if that helps with clogging. I'g gladly increase my hopping rate to compensate for the bag if it eliminated the clogging issue.

I don't use a racking cane - i pull from a dip tube at the bottom. I can rotate the dip tub so it is out of the trub but it is always a guess. Part of my problem is lack of room to work above the fermentor. I've only got about 6" to work with so no way to use a racking cane or a dry hop cylinder.

I'm curious about the daisy chain. Would this mean pushing the beer from keg to keg by filling the keg all the way to the top until it starts overflowing from the gas in line? Sounds like a cool idea so long as I get a handle on the clogging issue. Would solve my other problem of sitting there watching the slow ass transfer trying to to guestimate when the keg is full and ready to swap.

 

[mongoose33]

No. Think about what happens. Beer out on first keg connected to gas in on second keg, beer out on second keg connected to gas in on third keg, and beer out on third keg empties to bucket. Start pushing gas into first keg - SS goes into second keg, but as soon as the level reaches the dip tube, SS starts getting pushed to the third keg. Same thing happens in the third keg. Kegs two and three never fill up with SS. When pushing SS from one keg to another, you have to connect beer out to beer out, and then move the CO2 to the second keg to empty it.

Brew on

Another thing that happens with the daisy-chain approach is you don't completely empty a keg of air; there's always headspace at the top (where the lid is) that isn't completely filled.

When I fill a keg w/ Star-San to purge it, I always leave the lid open and then hit it with CO2 through the OUT port. This bubbles CO2 up from the bottom and completely fills the headspace and inside area of the lid with bubbles, all of which contain....CO2!

Then I "cap on foam" by putting the lid down inside, continue to generate bubbles, and then close it up. If I do it right, the only thing in the headspace is bubbles filled with CO2.

This is my standard way of doing that, but a word of warning--once the CO2 starts bubbling up, if you have too much pressure you'll create a surge of star-san out of the keg and onto the floor. So watch and keep connecting/disconnecting the QD on the OUT port as needed.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Couldn’t one daisy chain and leave the lids loose, installed and not clamped on kegs 2 and 3, once starsan, or starsan foam begins exiting the lid area, clamp it tight and then begin pushing to the next keg in the chain?

 

[doug293cz]

Couldn’t one daisy chain and leave the lids loose, installed and not clamped on kegs 2 and 3, once starsan, or starsan foam begins exiting the lid area, clamp it tight and then begin pushing to the next keg in the chain?

How much liquid StarSan do you think you'd get in a keg, filling thru the gas post, before foam started flowing out the lid? I'm pretty sure that the keg won't be close to full before it foams over. Shouldn't be hard to test.

Brew on

 

[brewbama]

Why does everyone believe in the principle of diffusion on this thread, yet objects to pouring priming solution into a primary fermenter, mixing gently without disturbing the cake, then waiting say 30 minutes and bottling straight out of primary?

It has worked fine for me, but most will swear you NEED to use a bottling bucket....
Same concept...

I’ve done that ...but closed transferred into a keg after priming the primary fermenter. Didn’t even stir it. Just poured it in and closed transferred. Works great.

 

[TheMadKing]

How much liquid StarSan do you think you'd get in a keg, filling thru the gas post, before foam started flowing out the lid? I'm pretty sure that the keg won't be close to full before it foams over. Shouldn't be hard to test.

Brew on

Why wouldn't you fill through the liquid post? that's what I do and you get virtually zero foaming.

So you would go: Keg full to the brim with star san - Liquid post to liquid post - until star san blows out the gas post of the second keg - that gas post out would be connected to the liquid post of the third keg, which begins to fill until star san blows out the gas post of that keg

You could also just place a chalk/shim under you keg so that the gas post is the high point in the keg. This would mean that the star san wouldn't flow to the next keg until all air is purged from the keg. This would also depend on the fact that your gas posts are cut short enough to allow the headspace to fill the slight dimple where the the post port is (if that makes any sense from someone 5 beers deep)..

 

[TheMadKing]

I don't use a racking cane - i pull from a dip tube at the bottom. I can rotate the dip tub so it is out of the trub but it is always a guess. Part of my problem is lack of room to work above the fermentor. I've only got about 6" to work with so no way to use a racking cane or a dry hop cylinder.

I'm curious about the daisy chain. Would this mean pushing the beer from keg to keg by filling the keg all the way to the top until it starts overflowing from the gas in line? Sounds like a cool idea so long as I get a handle on the clogging issue. Would solve my other problem of sitting there watching the slow ass transfer trying to to guestimate when the keg is full and ready to swap.

A hop sock sounds like the way to go for sure.. just make sure you sanitize the bag itself

Yep on the daisy chain - sounds like you have the idea. The only word of caution there, is that your liquid will be touching your gas posts in 2/3 of your kegs. That means that if you ever have lower pressure in your gas line/regulator than in your keg, you will blow beer back into your gas system. So you need to be careful about that. As long as your conscious of it, it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[doug293cz]

Why wouldn't you fill through the liquid post? that's what I do and you get virtually zero foaming.

So you would go: Keg full to the brim with star san - Liquid post to liquid post - until star san blows out the gas post of the second keg - that gas post out would be connected to the liquid post of the third keg, which begins to fill until star san blows out the gas post of that keg

You could also just place a chalk/shim under you keg so that the gas post is the high point in the keg. This would mean that the star san wouldn't flow to the next keg until all air is purged from the keg. This would also depend on the fact that your gas posts are cut short enough to allow the headspace to fill the slight dimple where the the post port is (if that makes any sense from someone 5 beers deep)..

You can't do a daisy chain that doesn't require reconfiguring the in and outs after each keg is filled with StarSan.

If you connect the gas post of the second keg to the liquid post of the third keg, then SS stops flowing to the third keg as soon as the SS level drops below the gas post in the second keg. You gotta reconfigure the ins/outs along the way. There is no way to do a hands-off daisy chain that fills each keg in turn.

Brew on

 

[TheMadKing]

You can't do a daisy chain that doesn't require reconfiguring the in and outs after each keg is filled with StarSan.

If you connect the gas post of the second keg to the liquid post of the third keg, then SS stops flowing to the third keg as soon as the SS level drops below the gas post in the second keg. You gotta reconfigure the ins/outs along the way. There is no way to do a hands-off daisy chain that fills each keg in turn.

Brew on

Yep you're 100% correct as usual.. I didn't think about the handoff of pushing liquid to pushing gas only

 

[Carolina_Matt]

For all the talk about different methods, has anyone seen a good video showing the steps? I ferment in a plastic bottling bucket, and I'd like to transfer to a keg as smoothly as possible. I've looked at plenty of Closed Transfer videos, but haven't seen one that fits the bill for me.

Right now I spray the keg with Star San, hook a tube from the spigot to the bottom of the keg, take the lid off of the bucket, take a sample for my FG reading, then open the spigot until everything is transferred. It's obviously not preventing oxygen from coming into contact with the beer.

 

[mongoose33]

For all the talk about different methods, has anyone seen a good video showing the steps? I ferment in a plastic bottling bucket, and I'd like to transfer to a keg as smoothly as possible. I've looked at plenty of Closed Transfer videos, but haven't seen one that fits the bill for me.

Right now I spray the keg with Star San, hook a tube from the spigot to the bottom of the keg, take the lid off of the bucket, take a sample for my FG reading, then open the spigot until everything is transferred. It's obviously not preventing oxygen from coming into contact with the beer.

Unclear what isn't clear from the above in this thread.

You set your bucket on a table above where the keg is. You make sure the keg is purged which, if you're simply running a tube from the spigot to the bottom of the keg--presumably with the keg lid removed--then you don't have. You have to have a closed keg that is purged.

Is your question how to purge a keg? Or is it how to transfer into the keg once purged?

If the first, look above at my post above--post #55--showing how to use bubbles to completely purge the keg.

Once you have a purged keg, connect your tube from the bucket's spigot to a black (liquid) quick disconnect. Attach that to the keg. Run another line from the white/gray (gas) disconnect back into the top of the bucket. That way you're feeding the beer into the keg, and the displaced CO2 from the keg back into the fermenter.

That can be done through the airlock hole. That way you're drawing CO2 from the keg, not air, into the fermenter as it drains.

It's really not very hard to do.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Thanks, Mongoose. That seems simple and straighforward, and I'm sure it'll be a piece of cake once I actually do it. I'm curious about the tubing though.

My spigot fits a 5/16" tube (I think), so I would just need to move a 5/16" barb from the gas to the liquid disconnect and it will be fine. I assume you have no issues with the poppet clogging?

But what size tube do you use from the gas disconnect back into the top of the bucket? If I remove the airlock, none of my tubes fit into the grommet hole. If I keep my airlock in, the middle part of my 3-piece airlock fits a 1/2" ID tube - but that's too wide for my disconnects. Do you use 5/16" gas tube and somehow connect it to your airlock?

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks, Mongoose. That seems simple and straighforward, and I'm sure it'll be a piece of cake once I actually do it. I'm curious about the tubing though.

Sometimes you just need to do it and resolve any issues that result. What's the worst that can happen if you don't get it right? You go back to the way you were doing it.

My spigot fits a 5/16" tube (I think), so I would just need to move a 5/16" barb from the gas to the liquid disconnect and it will be fine. I assume you have no issues with the poppet clogging?

Part of the issue w/ the QD is what kind you have--barbed, or with the MFL fitting to which you attach a swivel nut? If a swivel nut, you have flexibility for what size swivel nut you use to connect your tubing.

Yeah, the MFL ones are more expensive esp if you include the swivel nut in the equation, but much easier to take apart and clean and such.

And as to the poppet clogging: not if I'm careful to clear the lines first and make sure I'm not pulling hop trub and such into the lines.

But what size tube do you use from the gas disconnect back into the top of the bucket? If I remove the airlock, none of my tubes fit into the grommet hole. If I keep my airlock in, the middle part of my 3-piece airlock fits a 1/2" ID tube - but that's too wide for my disconnects. Do you use 5/16" gas tube and somehow connect it to your airlock?

Do you have one of the cheap bottling wands? I cut a 2" section of that and pushed it through a drilled stopper and it's perfect for attaching a line to. Some of this is figuring out what you have and then adapting to it.

The first time i ever did this I had the same situation as you, i.e., no stoper and rigid tube to connect the line to. I realized if I cut off the top of an airlock, voila! My line would fit to that. It's what you see in the pic. They're cheap and it'll work.

Here's a pic showing that:

 

[Brooothru]

Best way? Why, the best way is to get those fining agents in there without any oxygen being introduced.

Here's what I'm doing. Is it the best way? I don't know. Anyway, I have a Spike CF10 conical. It has a pressure manifold on the lid through which I can pull off CO2--or pressurize transfer. It's a ball-lock fitting. What I've done is concoct a way to pressure-transfer the finings through that fitting into the beer.

Here is the equipment I use to do this; the bottle was cleaned and sanitized. It'll hold 15psi of pressure or more. I have a bottle-carb fitting on it. I'll mix the finings with water as per normal, put in the bottle. Then I'll purge it a few times with CO2 (charge it, unscrew the cap a bit to vent, repeat). I'll pressurize the bottle of finings to a higher pressure than what's in the fermenter, invert the bottle as shown, and connect.

The pressure in the bottle injects the finings into the fermenter.

View attachment 615659

Could you use a largish plastic syringe and introduce that through, say, the sampling valve? I think so, provided you can seal things effectively.

I do exactly the same thing, except into Corny kegs through the 'liquid out' (black) post with a spunding valve on the 'gas in' (white/gray) post. Works like a champ. You can also "dry hop" this way by making a hop tea. I have also krausened using this technique, and it turned out to be the smoothest, most drinkable beer I had ever brewed in 25+ years of brewing. Doing what you can on the hot side to reduce oxygen exposure also goes a long way to improving your beer as well, despite what the naysayers might tell you. Don't be afraid to at least try something before rejecting it out-of-hand.

And while we're on the subject of naysayers, you'll hear some strong opinions over hop teas being 'vegetal' or 'grassy'. This can be true, but can also be prevented or at least mitigated. A hop tea made solely with tap or distilled water be underwhelming for dry hopping because water alone is insufficient to extract hop oils necessary for flavor and aroma. It will solubilize other vegetal components of the hops, however. When you dry hop traditionally, there is alcohol from the fermentation present in your beer. Alcohol acts to extract the hop oils that water alone cannot; therefore, flavor and aroma volatiles become present in the brew.

Some workarounds for this are transferring some of your kegged beer into a smaller keg (sanitized and purged) that has been primed (via the CO2 charged PET bottle method) with the hop tea. The alcohol in the beer extracts the oils and the water in the beer makes them soluble. Wait a few days. Transfer the contents of the small keg back into the serving keg. Voila! Dry hopping, oxygen free.

Alternatively, put your dry hops charge in a small jar and mix them with 2-4 oz. of neutral grain spirits (I use 100 proof vodka). After a day or two, dump this tincture, hops and all, into a French coffee press and fill it with hot/boiling water to steep. If the water temperature of the steep is greater than 180F up to 212F you will get further isomerization and can correct a beer that needs more bittering. Water temperature below 170-175F lend little to no additional bitterness but will add the flavor and aroma volatiles you want from a hop stand or dry hop charge.

I've done all of the aforementioned techniques by themselves and in conjunction with one another. They all work well and give very positive results, and accomplish it all in a low to oxygen-free environment. If you buy into what the majority of posters on this thread have stated, it can only help to make your beers better and add to its long-term stability. Give it a try and judge for yourself.

Brooo Brother

 

[Gravitysucks]

Slightly off topic and I apologize if it's already been answered and I missed it but if you are doing a completely closed loop transfer from a 10 or 15 gallon fermenter to 5 gallon kegs how do you determine how much you are putting in the kegs so you don't over fill them? All I can think of is that people must be weighing the kegs while filling since you can't actually see how much you are putting in? I've always bottled in the past but I just bought some equipment for kegging and have seen several posts about closed loop transfers lately so I was curious.

 

[doug293cz]

Slightly off topic and I apologize if it's already been answered and I missed it but if you are doing a completely closed loop transfer from a 10 or 15 gallon fermenter to 5 gallon kegs how do you determine how much you are putting in the kegs so you don't over fill them? All I can think of is that people must be weighing the kegs while filling since you can't actually see how much you are putting in? I've always bottled in the past but I just bought some equipment for kegging and have seen several posts about closed loop transfers lately so I was curious.

Yeah, weighing is probably the most accurate. Tare the keg on the scale before you start filling. 5 gal of beer will weigh 5 * 8.33 * FG lbs.

Brew on

 

[brewbama]

I fill the keg until I see beer begin coming out the gas in post. Then I hook up CO2 and draw off a pint or so until I no longer hear gurgling from the CO2 bubbling in beer. 100% CO2 in headspace.

 

[SanPancho]

I have recently started doing it as well. It's not as daunting as it first appears and it definitely keeps your beer tasting fresh for longer

A question for all you veterans, what's the best way to add fining agents without opening your fermenter or keg?

I'm trying to find a way to do it with an online syringe system (like now you would introduce medication through an IV) but they are hard to find

For kegs- Fill a syringe, push bubbles out. Pull the prv and release pressure. Connect co2 to gas post at like 1psi right as you unscrew the prv from the lid. Squirt down the hole and reseat the prv valve.

For fermenters- if you have a keg post you can do Like @mongoose33 does. But you can skip the purge and fill routine. Just use the smallest bottle you can find. (Coke has little bottles, like 150ml i think) Fill with finings, squeeze bottle until liquid reaches the top of the bottle and no air is left, then screw down carb cap. Then just Pressurize and and blow it into vessel.

and @eric19312 your problem of needing to purge multiple kegs illustrates the beauty of purging with fermentation gas. Daisy chain away. The principle doesn’t change. the only drawback is you gotta have the kegs ready when you start the ferment.

 

[eric19312]

and @eric19312 your problem of needing to purge multiple kegs illustrates the beauty of purging with fermentation gas. Daisy chain away. The principle doesn’t change. the only drawback is you gotta have the kegs ready when you start the ferment.

I like the idea of purging with fermentation gas but have a few questions.

1. Where are the kegs that are being purged physically relative to the fermentor? I don't have room for kegs in my fermentation chamber in addition to the fermentor. I'm guessing this is a technique for after migrating to conical unitank with glycol system but help me if there is way to do this I am missing.
2. Please clarify the daisy chain technique. I guess start with empty kegs, gas line from fermentor to beer out on first keg, gas in on first keg to beer out on second keg, with final gas in line submerged in water?
3. How do you assure the seal on the kegs? I don't believe corny kegs are capable of holding an airtight seal unless under pressure. Won't atmospheric O2 get back in through the questionable seal once fermentor CO2 slows down? If even one of the daisy chain kegs has a faulty seal wouldn't the whole lot be compromised? How would you even know if this had happened? I guess testing DO of beer in fermentor and after transfer to the keg but thats equipment I don't have.

 

[eric19312]

Yep on the daisy chain - sounds like you have the idea. The only word of caution there, is that your liquid will be touching your gas posts in 2/3 of your kegs. That means that if you ever have lower pressure in your gas line/regulator than in your keg, you will blow beer back into your gas system. So you need to be careful about that. As long as your conscious of it, it shouldn't be an issue.

How about putting a small shim under the keg on the beer out side during filling. This would tip the keg so the gas in post would be lower during filling than it will be during serving.

 

[SanPancho]

They dont need to physically be in the chamber, but do need to be connected. Not sure about your setup, i drilled a 1/2” hole for the tube. I use same hole to run co2 line into chamber to provide top pressure when i crash. 1-2psi keeps air from getting inside vessel.

Yes. From ferm into 1st kegs liquid, then from kegs gas post out to next kegs liquid. Repeat as needed.

Few options. On the final kegs gas post (where gas is exiting) you put a spund valve at like 2psi. Lids stay pressurized and sealed. Also helps keep krauzen down in the ferm.
Or just disconnect them when ferment starts to slow and hit them with co2 from tank to seal up tight.

In theory you could get some ingress into keg if lid wasn’t pressurized. Not sure how big an impact it would be, its not like the lid falls out or anything. Tiny, tiny, tiny gaps id think. Easy insurance? Good slather of keg lube on the oring and then once you snap lid in place, hit the lid/keg joint with more lube to seal it. (Like caulking). Done and done.

 

[BrewsnBass]

I like the question OP.

Lately I'm in a funk with multiple aspects of kegging. I believe I've got a slow leak in my system and wasted 2 bottles of gas. Still not sure where it is but I suspect I need to replace some of my poppets.

When closed transfers go well they add about 90 minutes to my packaging exercise. This comes from the time to purge 3 kegs using the push the star san method followed by the slow filling from the fermentor into those same kegs.

I have a plastic Speidel fermentor sitting in a fridge about 18" off the ground. It is too heavy to lift when full so gravity draining is not an option. I have a large ss dip tube and 1/2 ball valve on the fermentor and a gas post on the lid. I can pressurize it to about 2-3 PSI without blowing the lid. Best of days filling those 3 kegs is very slow.

Most of the time however they simply will not fill. The poppets quickly plug and your closed transfer is over. I have done the thing with taking out the poppet from the post and the plunger from the connector and that works. But now you don't have a sealed system and your closed transfer is compromised anyway.

I am playing with some alternative solutions. One I have had good luck with before is keg priming. Just do a half ass purge, fill the keg, and add some sugar. Just like bottle priming. Unlike bottle priming you can also dry hop the keg at the same time. I never had much issue with settling the yeast, pulling and dumping first 2-3 pints with this method but this year will try the clear beer draft system and see how that goes.

Second strategy I am checking out is a small metabisulfite addition at kegging time. This might be able to remove the oxygen introduced by sloppy kegging. Read about it on one of those experiments and thought I'd give it a try on current batch. Can't say for sure it helped but didn't seem to create any off flavors either and the beer is still drinking well.

Last thing that has always worked well for me is to leave keg one alone, dry hop keg 2 when I start serving keg 1, then dryhop keg 3 when I start serving keg 2. Maybe I am losing hop flavors and aromas to oxidation so just add them back.

Anyway I'd be really curious to hear from homebrewers that have done closed transfers with regular fermentors and then switched over to something like the Spike CF10. Does this make packaging day much easier? Or is it just shifting the work and aggravation around?

Also thought my keg was leaking so i installed a spunding valve and it was the taprite guage. If the yeast are still working i don't see the need to fully purge the keg. A few blasts work for me. Just keep the spund pressure low so the yeast still work. I bag the hops in the fermenter to prevent clogs.

 

[mongoose33]

I like the idea of purging with fermentation gas but have a few questions.

1. Where are the kegs that are being purged physically relative to the fermentor? I don't have room for kegs in my fermentation chamber in addition to the fermentor. I'm guessing this is a technique for after migrating to conical unitank with glycol system but help me if there is way to do this I am missing.

I used to use fermentation gas to purge kegs when I was using my Bigmouth bubbler fermenters. All you do is pull a line off the fermenter, either by attaching it to the airlock (you may need to cut the top off) or to a piece of rigid plastic through the drilled stopper. And then to a QD. I always attached my purge line to a black QD and connected it to the OUT post so the CO2 would go in at the bottom of the keg.

The rigid plastic tubing I use is from a bottling wand. I use 5/16" silicone tubing which I just happened to have lying around, and it works perfectly.

Of course, if your fermenter is in a ferm chamber, getting the gases outside the fermenter is an issue. I do this two ways depending on the ferm chamber. One is just through the front top of the small refrigerator; the other was using bulkhead shanks to pass ferm gas outside the refrigerator, and

1. Please clarify the daisy chain technique. I guess start with empty kegs, gas line from fermentor to beer out on first keg, gas in on first keg to beer out on second keg, with final gas in line submerged in water?

That's how I'd do it. Not really sure you'd have to terminate the last one in water or star san or whatever, but on the off chance a bug could get in there and screw things up, maybe. I'd probably do it more so when the CO2 stopped flowing I didn't get reverse gas mixing coming back in the last keg.

1. How do you assure the seal on the kegs? I don't believe corny kegs are capable of holding an airtight seal unless under pressure. Won't atmospheric O2 get back in through the questionable seal once fermentor CO2 slows down? If even one of the daisy chain kegs has a faulty seal wouldn't the whole lot be compromised? How would you even know if this had happened? I guess testing DO of beer in fermentor and after transfer to the keg but thats equipment I don't have.

If this were a concern, I'd seat the lids by hitting each keg with some pressure. Make sure you use keg lube on the big o-ring. One other thing you could do is put a small metal or plastic disc (think a penny or dime or similar) under the feet of the corny lid bale to add more pressure to pulling the lid tight against the seal.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

Some of this is figuring out what you have and then adapting to it.

I messed around with what I have, and I realized that the 1/2" ID tubing fits the nut in my MFL disconnect. It doesn't fit the 5/16" barb, but it fits around the flare nut. So it turns out I can just put it over the nut in the gas disconnect, then connect it to the inside portion of my 3-piece airlock. I'll give it a shot when I keg my next batch!

 

[mongoose33]

I messed around with what I have, and I realized that the 1/2" ID tubing fits the nut in my MFL disconnect. It doesn't fit the 5/16" barb, but it fits around the flare nut. So it turns out I can just put it over the nut in the gas disconnect, then connect it to the inside portion of my 3-piece airlock. I'll give it a shot when I keg my next batch!

It'll work.

 

[odie]

If you have fermented your beer fully, then transfer, the yeast is no longer active and eating up oxygen (from what I understand anyway). One of the solutions to this is to transfer while the yeast is still working (i.e. still fermenting).

What about priming the keg if your beer has fermented fully? You are going to get some yeast into the keg anyway. Priming sugar would allow the yeast to reactivate an consume any oxygen that is not purged?

 

[Carolina_Matt]

It'll work.

I gave it a shot and it seemed to work pretty well, although I did make a couple mistakes. Live and learn.

When I pumped Star San out of the keg, I somehow thought that CO2 should start from the bottom so I connected it to the beer-out disconnect. After about 10 minutes (and probably a ton of wasted CO2), I turned it off. There was barely any liquid in the bucket, and tons of bubbles. Then I did it the right way (CO2 in the gas disconnect, Star San out of the liquid disconnect) and it came pouring out pretty quickly.

When I kegged the beer, I found out that there's a tiny hole in the front of the spigot. As soon as I turned the spigot, a thin stream of beer went flying out of the hole, across my kitchen, and onto my refrigerator. I guess a lot of pressure was building up, and it led to a squirt.

I also wonder about the oxygen in the tube from the spigot to the keg. I initially opened up the spigot and tried to fill the tube with beer, before hooking it up to the keg. But I guess physics didn't like that idea, so I saw an air bubble flowing up the tube and into the spigot. I introduced some oxygen to the beer before it even touched the keg.

Overall it seemed to work well. If I looked at the keg at the proper angle, I was able to see a condensation line going up the keg and that let me know how much it filled up. I rarely have enough beer to overflow a keg, but the condensation line would help prevent that from happening if I wound up with a little extra in the fermentation bucket.