Apfelwein Saison?

[louie0202]

Been debating making the classic Apfelwein but with Belgian Saison yeast. I don't really like tart beers....but since the fermentation levels are there I am debating using it for the next Apfelwein batch. I can definitely get the batch to 90 degrees for fermenting. Anyone ever think of trying this?

 

[Nateo]

You really don't want to ferment at 90 degrees. Some yeast do better than others at higher temps, but all yeasts will throw off more fusels at higher temps than lower temps. Some people like hot alcohol/solvent flavors in their Belgian beers, but I don't. In something as lightly flavored as a cider I think this would be much more apparent, and take a longer time to become drinkable.

 

[louie0202]

Problem with the yeast I have is that it gets stuck and you have to raise it to 80 - 90 per Wyeast to get it to finish up.

 

[Nateo]

What yeast are you using? Are you monitoring pH during ferment? What nutrients are you using? Are you rousing/blowing off CO2?

CO2 in solution makes carbonic acid. The pH can drop quite a bit during ferment, making the must inhospitable to yeast. IMO this is the primary reason for slow/stuck ferments, provided you have adequate nutrients to begin with.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Problem with the yeast I have is that it gets stuck and you have to raise it to 80 - 90 per Wyeast to get it to finish up.

I've never used this type of yeast so I'm curious...Do you need to ferment all the way through at 80ºF+ or just allow it to finish up at 80ºF.

If you were to ferment in the low/mid 70s and then raise the temp slowly towards the end do you think this would cut down on the hot flavors?

 

[Nateo]

For <1.050 strength ales/meads/ciders/whatever I ferment at 65*. For anything over 1.050 I'll ferment at 60*. I monitor pH on fermenting meads and ciders, and adjust as necessary. Beer usually doesn't need pH adjust during ferment. I also rouse everyday until I hit terminal gravity.

I haven't had a stuck or sluggish ferment in probably 6 years.

 

[Nateo]

I've noticed, from monitoring pH during ferments with lots of different types of wine yeast, is that some yeasts produce a much more acidic must than others. WY3724 (Dupont) is probably a red wine strain. I would bet it's the pH that's the real issue, and raising the temp may work but isn't necessarily addressing the cause.

 

[louie0202]

Typically I just use normal Wine Yeast for mead and have never had an issue.....I just randomly was thinking about using
Wyeast Laboratories. Belgian Saison&#8482; 3724, because I have some and don't plan on using it on a beer anymore.

The 3724 in beer you typically have to raise the temp etc to get it to finish up. This is straight from their site: http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

 

[louie0202]

I've never used this type of yeast so I'm curious...Do you need to ferment all the way through at 80ºF+ or just allow it to finish up at 80ºF.

If you were to ferment in the low/mid 70s and then raise the temp slowly towards the end do you think this would cut down on the hot flavors?

Pepper I am going to start it at 65 and see where it goes....worst case scenario I will finish it off w/ wine yeast in a secondary.

 

[Nateo]

The 3724 in beer you typically have to raise the temp etc to get it to finish up. This is straight from their site: http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=60

Yeah, but why do you have to increase temperature? Increasing temperature for any yeast will increase attenuation. I've never used a strain where the root cause of low attenuation was the ferment temperature being below 90*.

I never said raising the temperature wouldn't work (because it does), but I doubt that it's addressing the cause.

 

[scottbutchart]

You don't need to raise temp, but it will help it start fermenting again. If you want to restrain ester/phenolic production, ferment below 68°F the whole time. The yeast just stalls for a bit, and as far as I know no one can tell me why. I typically pitch an active starter of 3711 French Saison yeast at that point to really attenuate down, seeing as it won't affect the flavor too much. My last batch stopped at 0.998...from 1.064.

 

[DoctorWho]

As an experiment me and a mate made a cider using Belgian Saison Yeast, Motts juice and 2lbs sugar (I used half cane half brown.)

My friend told me that we would need to raise the temps up to 90 as this yeast like that. He used a heating pad. I just used good old NYC summer and mine got to mid 80's. We fermented to dry, and kegged and left them alone for 6 months, and believe me it needs that long.

After 6 months we tested and both agreed that mine turned out better (not really sure if this was the temperature but otherwise we used identical ingredients/recipe), and it just kept getting better. It's been 10 months and I have 3 bottles left from that keg and I can't wait to make more, but I need the temperature to rise.