Anything new re: Invert vs not inverted sugar use?

[madscientist451]

So after many years away, I returned to the Homebrew network podcasts and found Jamil is still there and on a recent podcast he was discussing Gale's Prize Old Ale. Invert #1 or #3 is used, and I decided to hunt around and find if there was anything new about using invert sugar vs/other sugars. Most of the discussions about that topic here on HBT and other forums are pretty old.
So should I make my own invert sugar? Should I use Turbinado or even Piloncillo ( I can get it in local Hispanic stores) to make the invert or just chuck in the Piloncillo without inverting it and see if I like the beer?

Here's Jamil's clone recipe:
https://byo.com/recipe/gales-prize-old-ale-clone/

 

[cmac62]

I understand that inverting the sugar makes it easier for the yeast, and it is fairly easy to do, but it does take some time and cleanup. If I was making this beer I'd prolly start with 2 lb dark brown or Piloncillo and go from there. That looks like a hefty brew your looking at. Good luck.

 

[ba-brewer]

Inverting gives you fructose and glucose. If you don't want to use invert I would use half corn sugar and the other half turbinado or piloncillo. Turbinado taken to invert3 makes a pretty complex flavor not sure using it raw gives the same results.

I have been making invert sugar in a pressure cooker canner, less messy and no watching the thermometer. Jar and sugar are sterilized so I dump directly in the fermentor.

Starting on the stove and finishing in the oven is not too bad of a process but it requires more monitoring.

 

[DBhomebrew]

There's been quite a bit of recent conversation about invert. Whether to use it. How to make it. Commercial methods. Historic methods. What to make it with. Should you neutralize with baking soda. Etc. All in the last few months.

 

[DuncB]

I understand that inverting the sugar makes it easier for the yeast, and it is fairly easy to do, but it does take some time and cleanup. If I was making this beer I'd prolly start with 2 lb dark brown or Piloncillo and go from there. That looks like a hefty brew your looking at. Good luck.

Search in the English ales whats your favourite thread, well discussed in there in the last year or so. Plus how to make etc.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/posts/10247919/

 

[chthon]

Well, I did some searching around for the British homebrew forum.

This was my understanding after looking around on the web, and reading scientific articles:

• Don't bother making invert sugar, yeast has no problems with sucrose.
  • Yeast makes enough enzymes to split sucrose into glucose and fructose
• Yeast ferments fructose, but it prefers glucose.
  • When you use invert syrup or sucrose, make sure to add yeast nutrition to help the yeast ferment the fructose

Yes, just chuck in the Piloncillo. When British brewers made invert sugar, they used an acid and lime based process, using sulphuric acid. Somewhere on the net , there is a reference from a scientific brewing book which states that the taste of the resulting invert sugars was also from the interaction by the acids with the organic sugar residues. You can't reproduce that at home.

 

[DuncB]

Well, I did some searching around for the British homebrew forum.

This was my understanding after looking around on the web, and reading scientific articles:

• Don't bother making invert sugar, yeast has no problems with sucrose.
  • Yeast makes enough enzymes to split sucrose into glucose and fructose
• Yeast ferments fructose, but it prefers glucose.
  • When you use invert syrup or sucrose, make sure to add yeast nutrition to help the yeast ferment the fructose

Yes, just chuck in the Piloncillo. When British brewers made invert sugar, they used an acid and lime based process, using sulphuric acid. Somewhere on the net , there is a reference from a scientific brewing book which states that the taste of the resulting invert sugars was also from the interaction by the acids with the organic sugar residues. You can't reproduce that at home.

Next you'll be telling us Candi sugar is a waste of time!

 

[mashdar]

Next you'll be telling us Candi sugar is a waste of time!

Could you clarify, /s or no?

 

[chthon]

Next you'll be telling us Candi sugar is a waste of time!

Actually, yes, it is.

There are legal definitions of candy sugar and candy syrup. Candy sugar is the result of crystallisation in a sugar syrup. The crystals are the candy sugar, and the remaining syrup is candy syrup.

What is described in several places, with the addition of DME and the different heating, is actually the making of caramels.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeast makes enough enzymes to split sucrose into glucose and fructose

The enzyme is called - wait for it - invertase.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeast ferments fructose, but it prefers glucose.

Not sure why since glucose-6-phosphate gets converted to fructose-6-phosphate during glycolysis anyway and there is an enzyme that will phopshorylate fructose directly.

 

[chthon]

Not sure why since glucose-6-phosphate gets converted to fructose-6-phosphate during glycolysis anyway and there is an enzyme that will phopshorylate fructose directly.

Here is one reference

Here is a more scientific reference

 

[mac_1103]

First link doesn't really say anything about why. Second link doesn't work.

 

[shoengine]

Anytime you modify the inputs to a process the results will be different. I don't think you can boil this down to one or the other. Each one will make a distinct product.

 

[hotbeer]

When you think of invert sugar, don't really think about it for the fermentability since it has no particular value over the other common sugars. Think about the flavors you get at the various stages of darkness of it and the color it will impart to your beer.

You might can get those same flavors and color from other things depending on what it is you are tasting or perceiving.

 

[chthon]

First link doesn't really say anything about why. Second link doesn't work.

Updated second link, to main page.

 

[mac_1103]

Thanks. Interesting, but it's wine yeast not beer yeast and importantly "These results show that the discrepancy between glucose and fructose utilisation during fermentation is not a fixed parameter but is dependent on the inherent properties of the yeast strain and on the external conditions."

 

[kevin58]

In my experience nothing compares with invert. It has been a staple in British brewing for over 100 years. If they could get the same results using anything else I think they would have. I've tried all of the substitutes mentioned in this thread... Turbinado, corn sugar, etc. and they are not the same. There is a richness... a velvety butter scotch characteristic to invert that I do not get with any substitute.