Anyone have a solid Dark Czech Lager - Recipe

[Miraculix]

really appreciate the input man! I will have a low "softish" water profile in mind but I use my tap water and adjust so the adjusted profile won't be as low as these specs but I think I'll be in the neighborhood anyways. Your input on Ca and Na is very helpful! I am planning on some residual sweetness due to FG targeting 1.014-1.015ish. Don't have Sinamar and will be using carafe special II and holding it at 4% only. For this first attempt at this recipe I am going with a step mash as I really don't want to try a new technique that Im not familiar with with decoction (plus I only have one burner). The protein rest recommendation "may" be outdated, not sure. But I did look up the floor malted pilsner and dark malts that I am using and according to Weyermann's specs these malts have Kolbach indexes between 36-45 which seems to fall in the "less-modified to well modified" malt categories from what I understand so I think I will skip the protein rest considering they don't seem to be "under-modified". If you think the benefit of protein rest that my "rookie" expertise did not detect, I'd be all ears. I use the anvil foundry so step mashing is easy but I ramp temps rather slowly so as to avoid element scorching as I don't recirculate that fast. Other benefits of the protein rest I am not anticipating?

Based on BJCPs comments on the style and my own experience with other dark Czech lagers (I loved CharlesTowne Fermentory version of Tmave Pivo) I am aiming for a slightly lower IBU range with sweeter balance vs the drier and higher bitterness Ive had with other versions. Seems that whenever I learn a new style, on the surface it seems easy, but then upon closer inspection there seems to be a much wider range within the styles lol. Overall though, as long as the yeast to their thang, I think this first go-round with this style, I will be in the neighborhood of the style and will modify for future editions to my liking. Not trying for a competition beer here, just a beer that mimics what I love about some of the ones that I liked to the style.

Again, I sincerely appreciate the input from you @jdauria and others.

EDIT: I have seen LOTS of peeps talking about IBUs in absolute terms ranging from 20-30IBUs, but to put it in context, what has been everyones BU/OG ratio you have been using for this style?

Please forget bjcp for European styles. Ask the people from the specific country, not the people from America who think they know how the Europeans should brew their beer.

 

[ITV]

I recently brewed Gorden Strongs version of U Fleku which has the grain proportions of the U Fleku article. Instead of the traditional decoction mash, I used a kettle mash (Kesselmaishe) where you drain off the wort and boil the entire mash and then add the wort back for the final conversion and mashout.

I am very pleased with the results but unfortunately I am not able to find a Czech dark larger locally to compare. The beer club that I am in is having a club competition for Dark European Beers, time will tell on how my beer does.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Please forget bjcp for European styles. Ask the people from the specific country, not the people from America who think they know how the Europeans should brew their beer.

Ok, I definitely get it. Especially when I haven't brewed a specific style though, I still use BJCP simply as one data point along with all other info Ive gathered in order to put my best foot forward on the first brew. Anyways, can you comment on your experience with this style specifically in regards to bitterness? The bitterness part seems to be all over the place from relatively low to moderate IMO which is why I asked about BU/OG ratio. Thanks in advance for your opinion/experience.

 

[Miraculix]

Ok, I definitely get it. Especially when I haven't brewed a specific style though, I still use BJCP simply as one data point along with all other info Ive gathered in order to put my best foot forward on the first brew. Anyways, can you comment on your experience with this style specifically in regards to bitterness? The bitterness part seems to be all over the place from relatively low to moderate IMO which is why I asked about BU/OG ratio. Thanks in advance for your opinion/experience.

This beer never was really in my focus, but the ones I had in Czech and Slovakia were neither overly bitter nor very sweet. I'd call it nicely balanced if that makes sense. I would try to brew something with 5% abv or a bit lower and about 25 ibus. But that's only based on what I've had when I've been there and it's been some time since then. I obviously didn't see any numbers except the abv. Well to medium attenuation plus 25 ibus and you should be good I guess.

 

[AlexKay]

Please forget bjcp for European styles. Ask the people from the specific country, not the people from America who think they know how the Europeans should brew their beer.

This is a little extreme! Instead, think of any given BJCP style as an encyclopedia entry. You’ve got someone (maybe an American, maybe not) who’s trying to put together the entry and does some research: drinks a bunch of commercial examples, asks a number of locals and experts, and tries to put together something consistent and coherent. So it’s not a primary source, but someone is sharing the results of their research with you. You can of course do your own research (ask some locals, etc.), but there’s no a priori reason to ignore theirs.

 

[Miraculix]

This is a little extreme! Instead, think of any given BJCP style as an encyclopedia entry. You’ve got someone (maybe an American, maybe not) who’s trying to put together the entry and does some research: drinks a bunch of commercial examples, asks a number of locals and experts, and tries to put together something consistent and coherent. So it’s not a primary source, but someone is sharing the results of their research with you. You can of course do your own research (ask some locals, etc.), but there’s no a priori reason to ignore theirs.

Historically speaking, there has been enough false stuff been written about European beer in the bjcp guidelines that one could easily come to the conclusion that this is not a valid information source.

 

[sslater]

@Noob_Brewer

I’ve brewed this style once or twice in the past and would have to review notes in my computer to see how different my grain bill was than what you came up with.

One that responded to you said to his taste, all Pilsner malts produced beer that tastes the same. My taste disagrees with that… Pilsner malt I’ve used frequently are Pelton (from Mecca Grade in Oregon), Best Malz Pils (Germany), Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner (Germany), and when starting I used to use Great Western Pilsner malt sometimes. All of these have similarities because they are light in color, but pretty big differences in taste. May have to use one if you cannot get the one you want, but they are not the same.

None of the Homebrew shops in my area seem able to get BestMalz Pils right now, so I have a new bag of Weyermann Barke Pils, which is supposed to have more flavor than their standard Pils malt so we will see… Interesting story / believe it is an heirloom malt being grown again.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

@Noob_Brewer

I’ve brewed this style once or twice in the past and would have to review notes in my computer to see how different my grain bill was than what you came up with.

One that responded to you said to his taste, all Pilsner malts produced beer that tastes the same. My taste disagrees with that… Pilsner malt I’ve used frequently are Pelton (from Mecca Grade in Oregon), Best Malz Pils (Germany), Weyermann Bohemian Floor Malted Pilsner (Germany), and when starting I used to use Great Western Pilsner malt sometimes. All of these have similarities because they are light in color, but pretty big differences in taste. May have to use one if you cannot get the one you want, but they are not the same.

None of the Homebrew shops in my area seem able to get BestMalz Pils right now, so I have a new bag of Weyermann Barke Pils, which is supposed to have more flavor than their standard Pils malt so we will see… Interesting story / believe it is an heirloom malt being grown again.

Thanks for your reply. I ended up brewing this on Sunday and went with Weyermann Floor Malted BoPils and Floor malted BoDark malts for the base grains. I asked about something like this earlier, but I really couldn't find a good answer anywhere regarding the difference between Weyermann's Floor Malted Grains vs the Barke line of grains. The sensory wheel comparison I posted earlier in this thread makes it appear these particular grains are near identical with Barke having slightly higher scores on caramel and malty aromas. Not sure I would perceive a difference myself though. I will say that the floor malted grains I used tasted fantastic when just eating them raw when I was grinding them, especially the FM Bohemian Dark! Anyways this beer is fermenting away now so we will see how it comes out.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

This thread has inspired me to try my hand at brewing a Tmawe pivo as my first lager.
I can get Weyermann's floormalted Bohemian Dark and Light, and I still have my Warbro Balder Vienna malt from when I experimented with mild malt substitutes. The plan is to split the base malt evenly between Vienna, Bohemian Light and Dark, and ~ 3% Simpson black malt for colour and a little roasty touch.
Aiming for 1.045/25 IBU and and likely about 4.5% or just over.
Thought about using Celeia for late hops, 15g @30 min and 15g @10min.
Will be bottled and naturally carbed and then lagered in bottle in my beer fridge I just got an excuse to hook up again to use as a lager fridge...
Oh, and a single decoction will be employed, tbh it doesn't seem that hard to do...

 

[ITV]

I recently brewed Gorden Strongs version of U Fleku which has the grain proportions of the U Fleku article. Instead of the traditional decoction mash, I used a kettle mash (Kesselmaishe) where you drain off the wort and boil the entire mash and then add the wort back for the final conversion and mashout.

I am very pleased with the results but unfortunately I am not able to find a Czech dark larger locally to compare. The beer club that I am in is having a club competition for Dark European Beers, time will tell on how my beer does.

I won the beer club competition and scored a 48 (by a National Judge) in a local competition with this beer!

I was also able to compare it to several Czech dark lagers from the Czech Republic (purchased locally) and my version was missing some caramel malt flavors when served at cold, as it warmed up a bit, the caramel malt flavors came through.

 

[Dgallo]

I won the beer club competition and scored a 48 (by a National Judge) in a local competition with this

A score of 48!!! That’s absurd!! Congrats. I’ve been competing for some time now and I don’t think I’ve ever seen over a 45/46 given and Probably less than 5 of those scores I’ve seen. Congrats man!

 

[sslater]

A score of 48!!! That’s absurd!! Congrats. I’ve been competing for some time now and I don’t think I’ve ever seen over a 45/46 given and Probably less than 5 of those scores I’ve seen. Congrats man!

Yeah that’s an incredible score! I have not received anything that high in a Homebrew competition either… Now you need to enter it in some bigger competitions…

 

[jerrylotto]

Why not just throw a couple of ounces of black patent into your favorite Czech Pilsner mash? I would do it post decoction steps if you use them.

 

[ITV]

Yeah that’s an incredible score! I have not received anything that high in a Homebrew competition either… Now you need to enter it in some bigger competitions…

The 48 score only got me a 3rd place. Mini BOS judging does not look at scores and I was competing with similar beers (Schwarzbier).
In my opinion, the 48 score has more bragging rights than a 1st place score.

I have entered that beer in other competitions, which I received a 36 with comments about lacking body. Maybe because it was "too cold" as I mentioned that if the beer warms up a bit the caramel malt flavors come through. The walk-in coolers at competitions are closer to freezing temps compared to my beer fridge at home (36 Deg F).

Another competition where a pro-brewer scored it a 44 with comments that he wouldn't change a thing and some people want bigger flavors. His comments seemed that he wanted to score it higher but had to be within 5 points of the other judge.

 

[ITV]

Why not just throw a couple of ounces of black patent into your favorite Czech Pilsner mash? I would do it post decoction steps if you use them.

I recently brewed this beer adding some black malt to the sparge, I use Gordon Strong's method by adding non-fermentable malts to the vorlauf stage to reduce harshness.
I also used a house strain yeast (34/70) given to my by a local microbrewery (Gold Finger) with the understanding that I would share my beer that I brewed with the yeast. It is still in the cold lagering phase, should be ready the week of July 4th.

 

[Sumisu3]

Just in case folks haven’t seen these…

Great article on Tmavé Pivo brewing. Just brewed mine two days ago. Now in the fermenter waiting for the yeast to get going after I got the temp down low enough. I used Bestmalz Pils Malt and Mangrove Jack M84 yeast.

https://dafteejit.com/2022/12/the-best-beer-i-ever-brewed/
And of course an article by Evan Rail on the beer itself.

https://beerandbrewing.com/tmave-pivo-the-czech-republics-uncommon-dark-lager/