Anyone care to guess what Hill Farmstead does to their water?

[othellomcbane]

Having had a number of Shaun Hill's creations now, I've noticed a running theme in his beers — they all have this very light, airy composition. They feel extremely "soft" in your mouth, like they almost dissolve as soon as they hit your tongue. Hopefully this makes sense even if you've never had any HF beers. Even his aggressively hopped DIPAs feel gentle, in a way, as they hit your mouth.

I am guessing this is mostly due to his brewing water treatment, as it's recurrent across different styles of beer. From reading different interviews and articles about him, and just the way he writes out the ingredients on his labels, it's obvious that water is hugely important to Hill's process. Having recently decided that I need to learn a lot more about brewing water chemistry, I'd be very curious if anyone can guess what sort of treatment would achieve results like this. Does it mean he just has very soft well water, or is it (I'm assuming) more complicated and specific than that?

Not expecting anyone to have exact answers (unless Shaun Hill reads this and would like to respond?) just curious to hear speculation.

 

[ajdelange]

It is likely that he is one of the increasing number of brewers who have discovered that very soft (low total mineral content - not just low calcium/magnesium) water makes very good beers. I could be dead wrong but I'd guess that he is using RO water (or has another source of low mineral content water) with a bit of calcium chloride and nothing else. Aggressive hoppiness without harshness is an indicator that the water is low in sulfate. It is also possible that hop oils are involved. These lend hop flavor without bitterness and make for very smooth beers but one can get a lot of hop flavor without the use of extracts/oils if the water is sulfate poor.

 

[afr0byte]

Admittedly it's been a while since I've had his beers, but his pale ale certainly seemed like it had a fair bit of sulfate. For my palate it definitely seemed like a biting bitterness (not necessarily a bad thing...but it's definitely not my thing...I just had some of my dubbel at ~19IBU). I use to go to Three Penny Taproom, who often carry many of his beers (They're only about 20-30 minutes away from Greensboro, VT.). His dark beers, especially, seem highly mineralized. My guess is that he does a good job of getting his pH in line (which lends smoothness to my beers) and thus has low bicarbonate.

 

[afr0byte]

According to their site, they use the well water. If it's anything like mine or my parents' water, it's probably not very soft. He could lime soften it I suppose, if it's anything like my water. It doesn't seem like he has enough space for lime softening though.

 

[ajdelange]

Even his aggressively hopped DIPAs feel gentle, in a way, as they hit your mouth.

This says low sulfate

For my palate it definitely seemed like a biting bitterness.

This says high.

I don't know this gentleman or his beers so all I can do is speculate based on what you all tell me and it is no more than speculation. I live 35 mi north and my well is atrocious WRT alkalinity and hardness - not much sulfate though- to the extent that I'm installing RO to be able to just drink the water let alone brew with it. Thus I'm guessing RO for this guy. But it's a WAG for sure.

 

[afr0byte]

I must admit part of the biting bitterness on the pale ale could have been the fact that it's 5.2%ABV and 85 IBUs. The only thing making it a pale ale is the ABV/color. It's certainly in the IPA/DIPA realm for bitterness. It is indeed a WAG on my part (especially since it's probably been close to a year since I've had his beer).

 

[PJM]

I don't know anything about water but LOVE the beer. Had Edward and Abner on my first trip to VT last winter. I would agree with the OP's assessment of the beer. There is a certain "light" quality to the beer. Anyone have a good clone recipe?

 

[dcp27]

"When I posted my tips on brewing better hoppy beers a few months ago, Shaun Hill (of Hill Farmstead) chimed in on the blog's Facebook page to suggest that, in addition to sulfate, he thinks using chloride is key to treating the water he uses for hoppy beers."
- http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/03/india-amber-ale-recipe.html

 

[afr0byte]

"When I posted my tips on brewing better hoppy beers a few months ago, Shaun Hill (of Hill Farmstead) chimed in on the blog's Facebook page to suggest that, in addition to sulfate, he thinks using chloride is key to treating the water he uses for hoppy beers."
- http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2012/03/india-amber-ale-recipe.html

I suppose that would explain both mine and the OP's experiences. The chloride obviously smooths things out enough for the OP, but not really for my tastes.

 

[Homercidal]

I generally prefer to aim for a balanced to malty ratio for all of my beers, even the IPAs. I don't care for a harsh bitterness (well, maybe a few mouthfulls, but then it gets tiring.)

This seems to fit with the author of that article when he reports what Shaun Hill said. And I also don't understand the whole ratio thing, as if total amounts don't matter. I think we can all agree that total amounts of both Sulfate and Chloride actually do matte, even if it's secondary to the ratio for most water. I'd like to see some more data on that concept.

 

[afr0byte]

I emailed Hill Farmstead about how they treat their water for their pale+hoppy beers. Hopefully they'll respond.

 

[ajdelange]

And I also don't understand the whole ratio thing, as if total amounts don't matter. I think we can all agree that total amounts of both Sulfate and Chloride actually do matte, even if it's secondary to the ratio for most water. I'd like to see some more data on that concept.

It's the other way round. The total amounts do matter and the ratio is secondary i.e. the ratio can convey some useful information if the range of one or the other of sulfate or chloride is restricted and that's because specifying the ratio in such cases is equivalent to specifying the abosolute amounts. The ratio thing is one of those straws that beginning home brewers, deperate to find something to grab on to to try to make sense out of this brewing water things elevated well beyond its actual usefulness. It came from a paper in which a study was reported in which it seemed that panel members preferred beers based on their ratios rather than the values of both. I have never seen this paper so I can't comment further. This somehow transmogrified to the ratio being a design parameter for a 'malty - hoppy axis'. This assumes that maltiness and hoppiness are the same principal component (just of opposite sign). They are clearly not.

 

[othellomcbane]

I emailed Hill Farmstead about how they treat their water for their pale+hoppy beers. Hopefully they'll respond.

Excellent, I really hope he does. Thanks for the responses everyone. It says right on the bottles that they use their own well water... probably a stupid question, but what would be involved in RO-ing your own water source? I didn't realize that was a process that would be convenient / feasible for a small brewery to perform themselves for every brew session.

 

[ajdelange]

It's entirely feasible depending on what one intends to do and how he intends to do it. http://www.pbase.com/agamid/image/124857348 illustrates a 500 GPD system with atmospheric and pressure tanks. In the brewery one has 2 sets of faucets/bibs/hoses. One for straight well water and one for RO water so there is maximum convenience and flexibility. But it is not necessary to have all that extra stuff. The 'skid' (the white framework thing towards the right side of the picture with the two cylinders) is the basic RO unit (there are 2 membrane cartridges in the white cylinders) an that alone feeding an HLT (instead of an atmospheric tank as in the photo) should do for the typical small brewery. The outfit I'm affiliated with has a 15 bbl mash tun and could thus collect enough water overnight from a 1000 gpd system which would cost them about $2700. That's appreciable capital cost but spread over a year or two in a capital lease with ownership of the equipment at the end isn't that burdensome.

And you wouldn't do it for every brew session in many cases - only those that benefit from really low mineral water. The guy I am advising has a stable source of good water which makes excellent ales. It's not so great for light lagers because of relatively high sulfate. So he would do lagers with the RO water and continue to do ales as he is doing them now.

There are some other considerations such as what one does with the concentrate. A modern RO system is, dependent on source water and how much rejection one wants, capable of 75% (or even a bit higher) recovery. That's not too much water wasted and if the source is fairly low in mineral content then there should be little problem with disposal of it. OTOH if the source is nasty such that high rejection is needed and one must set the recovery low then he may have a lot of strong brine to dispose of and the municipality may have something to say about how that's done.

 

[afr0byte]

Well, Shaun responded, but he wasn't terribly forthcoming: "All of our beers have a unique profile - and each are adjusted accordingly. Some are heavier on sulfate, some less. All have chloride. It's a process of trial and error to achieve that which best suits your taste.'

 

[othellomcbane]

Thanks. I'm not surprised he wouldn't give a more specific answer, but that's still helpful. I guess the main missing piece seems to be whether he RO's his water first, or if his well water is naturally soft.

 

[truck]

main missing piece was quite simple for Heady Topper, this guy sent it off for sampling!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/heady-topper-results-ward-labs-481031/

it costs about $40, but tells you all you need to know! anyone want to jump in on that? I am nowhere near VT for a long time :-(

https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.aspx

 

[GotPushrods]

main missing piece was quite simple for Heady Topper, this guy sent it off for sampling!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/heady-topper-results-ward-labs-481031/

it costs about $40, but tells you all you need to know! anyone want to jump in on that? I am nowhere near VT for a long time :-(

https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.aspx

As was pointed out in the Heady Topper thread, malt contributes a lot to the finished product, especially K and Mg. It doesn't necessarily tell you much about what the starting water was like.

You could do a series of tests and try to find out how much different malts raise which ions by how much...etc. Until then, I wouldn't read too much into those results. I would stop at "relatively hard, high sulfate water".

 

[actueel]

Having had a number of Shaun Hill's creations now, I've noticed a running theme in his beers — they all have this very light, airy composition. They feel extremely "soft" in your mouth, like they almost dissolve as soon as they hit your tongue. Hopefully this makes sense even if you've never had any HF beers. Even his aggressively hopped DIPAs feel gentle, in a way, as they hit your mouth.

I am guessing this is mostly due to his brewing water treatment, as it's recurrent across different styles of beer. From reading different interviews and articles about him, and just the way he writes out the ingredients on his labels, it's obvious that water is hugely important to Hill's process. Having recently decided that I need to learn a lot more about brewing water chemistry, I'd be very curious if anyone can guess what sort of treatment would achieve results like this. Does it mean he just has very soft well water, or is it (I'm assuming) more complicated and specific than that?

Not expecting anyone to have exact answers (unless Shaun Hill reads this and would like to respond?) just curious to hear speculation.

I know this is a late post, a few years really. But the water in VT is different from property to property. A lot of the water wells in the area use softener. Other brewers closer to Middlebury use Otter Creek as their source for water. It really depends on the area, there is no easy answer.

 

[afr0byte]

I forgot to post this...according to shawn the water alkalinity from his well is about 140...so he probably adds a fair bit of acid in addition to a lot of calcium

 

[cpapallo]

I forgot to post this...according to shawn the water alkalinity from his well is about 140...so he probably adds a fair bit of acid in addition to a lot of calcium

He told you that? I just got my water test results back last week and that's actually about the alkalinity of my water. I had to use around 6mL of lactic acid (split between mash and sparge water) and about 12g of gypsum to get pH and alkalinity somewhat in check. Brewed with the adjusted water for the first time yesterday in an attempt to make a bottle inspired by HF Double Galaxy. I've made it before with bottled water and it has been close. First crack at it with my well.

 

[afr0byte]

He told you that? I just got my water test results back last week and that's actually about the alkalinity of my water. I had to use around 6mL of lactic acid (split between mash and sparge water) and about 12g of gypsum to get pH and alkalinity somewhat in check. Brewed with the adjusted water for the first time yesterday in an attempt to make a bottle inspired by HF Double Galaxy. I've made it before with bottled water and it has been close. First crack at it with my well.

Yeah, I'd emailed him. Good luck on the beer.

 

[leesmith]

He told you that? I just got my water test results back last week and that's actually about the alkalinity of my water. I had to use around 6mL of lactic acid (split between mash and sparge water) and about 12g of gypsum to get pH and alkalinity somewhat in check. Brewed with the adjusted water for the first time yesterday in an attempt to make a bottle inspired by HF Double Galaxy. I've made it before with bottled water and it has been close. First crack at it with my well.

Please let us know how it turns out.

A few days ago I had Tired Hand's Hop Hands and then Hill's Excursions #3. The different beers seemed to share the quality of being deliberate; a focused flavor profile that comes from the brewer's attention to water additions and ph? There's nothing muddled about the beers these guys make.

The quality of Shaun's beer may come from the fact every flavor and sensation of the beer is presented so there's nothing to question? You get IT right away. Again...nothings muddled. He pushes a beer's flavor/feel around with his water adjustments until it's well defined.

 

[cpapallo]

I just tapped a beer with a recipe influenced by Edward (a tried and true recipe I've done about 4-5 times now with consistency). I'd have to check notes, but I used 11g gypsum and 5g calcium chloride (to a 6 gallon batch) and it's very nice. I'd actually say better than when I brewed it with bottled water. Here's a picture. Sorry landscape is off.

 

[leesmith]

I just tapped a beer with a recipe influenced by Edward (a tried and true recipe I've done about 4-5 times now with consistency). I'd have to check notes, but I used 11g gypsum and 5g calcium chloride (to a 6 gallon batch) and it's very nice. I'd actually say better than when I brewed it with bottled water. Here's a picture. Sorry landscape is off.

Looks good!

What would you say are the differences between the one made with bottled water and your tap water? Do you have a well or city water?

 

[cpapallo]

Looks good!

What would you say are the differences between the one made with bottled water and your tap water? Do you have a well or city water?

I'd say overall, much more rounded out taste. Less crisp. Softer may be a good descriptor. But the hops are brighter and less bitter.

For bottled water I had been using Poland Spring. I'm going to try to see what my water numbers were on this batch (will plug into bru'n water today).

 

[leesmith]

I see you have a well from reading one of your previous posts.

Curious to see what your water is...ph, sulfate and chloride.

I use Poland Spring and have found a light hand with additions better to my taste. Getting the ph dialed in has helped tremendously.

I'm on city water and really wouldn't consider using it unless I could test it every brewday...there are days when it smells like pool water coming out of the faucet. At this point I'm really interested in getting an RO system. Tired of dealing with empty water jugs kicking around the basement. And I'd actually save money at the end of the year.

 

[cpapallo]

I see you have a well from reading one of your previous posts.

Curious to see what your water is...ph, sulfate and chloride.

I use Poland Spring and have found a light hand with additions better to my taste. Getting the ph dialed in has helped tremendously.

I'm on city water and really wouldn't consider using it unless I could test it every brewday...there are days when it smells like pool water coming out of the faucet. At this point I'm really interested in getting an RO system. Tired of dealing with empty water jugs kicking around the basement. And I'd actually save money at the end of the year.

pH is 8-8.5 (I'd guess - got a reading of 8.1 on a water report, but it's a well, and it's going to fluctuate)

Sulfate was incredibly low (without water report handy, I'm guessing, but I think it was like 18ppm).

Calcium was in the range of 60-75ppm.

Sorry for the quasi-vague answers. Just don't have the water report handy, but wanted to answer your question the best I could without it.