I made a lambic mead and it has been sitting for 1.5 years. There is a popcorn taste which I am assuming is diacetyl. Anything I can do at this point to get rid of it? Will more time do anything? Pitch healthy fresh healthy yeast to clean it up? Any ideas/experience?
Any way to get rid of (popcorn taste) diacetyl?
- Thread starter Twang
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Can you up the fermentation temp to do a diacetyl rest?
Since it's a lambic, I would guess that the diacetyl is coming from something like pediococcus. Pedio is one of the culprits for diacetyl flavor (due to contamination) in beer lines.
It has been at room temp for about a year now with only slight improvement. Now I'm wondering if it could be tetrahydropyridine...http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Tetrahydropyridine
Either way my current plan is to pitch wine yeast and some fruit and hope the yeast will clean it up enough for the fruit to mask it. Unless someone has another suggestion.
Either way my current plan is to pitch wine yeast and some fruit and hope the yeast will clean it up enough for the fruit to mask it. Unless someone has another suggestion.
I made a Berliner Weisse a while back that was decidedly buttery after kegging. My solution was to remove the keg from the keezer, add a package of Nottingham (I think) and referment for a week or so at 70-72°F. It cleaned up the diacetly nicely. Don't know what it would do for THP. Most ale, lager, wine yeasts (Saccharomyces) should metabolize diacetyl given the proper temperature and time.
505-Brewer
Well-Known Member
I would expect that DA would have been cleaned up by any brett that was present. DA tastes like buttery popcorn which should be quite distinguishable from cheerios flavor. Key is butter or butterscotch not the popcorn flavor itself.
Pull a sample and nuke in microwave until it reaches ~ 140F. Stir and place in fridge to cool to room temp. If theres DA present this will bring it forward. Compare to non heated sample. As mentioned anove pedio can throw out DA and its possible beer had DA, was clean and then releases DA again later but it sounds like you think this flavor has been there the whole time?
Of course we dont know exactly what you did but feeding a simple sugars to something that usually feeds on more complex sugars can do weird things.
If it were me and it was DA I certainly wouldnt put it on fruit till the DA is gone!
Pitch brett and wait or pitch your wine yeast and wait but don't add any more $/fruit till it tastes good.
Id pitch brett.
flemming
Active Member
I've experienced this before in sours beers that I've produced and it's actually a flavor that I personally detect fairly frequently in commercially produced sours. For a long time I thought it was diacetyl, but my experience with diacetyl during off flavor tasting was quite different. I had the chance to share a sour of mine with Oldsock at the BYO Bootcamp in Santa Rosa and he immediately pegged it at as THP (as you previously sited). The more I read about it the more it all made sense, especially the bit about the flavor appearing primarily in the aftertaste. His suggestion to help prevent it was to be sure and pitch a fresh sacc strain (something alcohol and low pH tolerant, like champagne, or wine yeast) when bottling, as well as trying to reduce exposure to oxygen as much as possible during the bottling process. I think the most interesting part is how prominent the flavor is to me while others have no idea what I'm talking about when tasting the same beer. Since mouth pH is a factor in whether or not you can taste it, I guess the short answer is that my pallet is just too basic 
Robert
Robert
question for the OP: when you say "popcorn taste", do you mean the taste of plain popcorn (the white fluffy part), or the taste of buttered popcorn? i'm going to assume the latter, but please let me know if i'm wrong.
my guess is that it's not THP. based on everything i've read and heard, THP typically happens when stressed brett is exposed to oxygen and given a new food supply - which is exactly what happens at bottling. i haven't heard of anyone experiencing spontaneous THP in an untouched, aging fermentation.
diacetyl seems like a more likely candidate. buttered popcorn is the text-book definition of diacetyl's taste (in fact it's what is used in artificially buttered popcorn). however, if the taste you are getting is un-buttered popcorn, then that is closer to THP.
i too would pitch some brett, perhaps add a little food to make sure it has something to get going, and give it some time to clean up.
flemming
Active Member
I've experienced it with sour beers that have been gravity stable and force carbonated, so I don't think a new food supply is really essential. I'd guess that a dried out airlock or sloppy racking between fermenters could introduce enough oxygen to cause it while still in the fermenter, but I'm just speculating.
Robert
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
I've spoken to several brewers and cellar workers in major sour breweries, and those that work at some of the yeast labs in person, and on the MTF group. The consensus I've gathered is that, we know WHAT thp is, and what organisms produce it, but no real idea why or how to avoid it, but it does age out.
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
If it's pedio then it will pass, pedio can cause a sickness during fermentation. The bigger question is where did pedio get into your system?
homebrewer_99
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I made a Berliner Weisse a while back that was decidedly buttery after kegging. My solution was to remove the keg from the keezer, add a package of Nottingham (I think) and referment for a week or so at 70-72°F. It cleaned up the diacetly nicely. Don't know what it would do for THP. Most ale, lager, wine yeasts (Saccharomyces) should metabolize diacetyl given the proper temperature and time.
That's what I've done and recommended in the past too.
