Any tricks to getting Wyeast 5335 to sour further?

[SpeedYellow]

After 4 days, my Berliner Weisse sour worting has only gotten down to a pH of 4.4. I pitched a 0.8L starter into 4.2 gal, and have been holding it in my fermentation chamber at 90F, per Wyeast's recommendation. Based on the pH vs. Time graphs at Milk The Funk for L. Buchneri, I expected to be much further along by 96 hours.

Just wondering if bumping up the temp to 95-100F might be useful.

 

[foltster]

Does it taste sour?

 

[beerkench]

I would try increasing the temperature
like you suggested and giving it more time. My sour wort took four days to drop from a pre acidulated pH 4.5 to 3.5, innoculated with a handful of malt.


Sent from hell
using Home Brew

 

[finsfan]

Did you use any hops in the mash or wort? That Milk the Funk page lists that 5335 should be used in wort with ZERO hops.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Does it taste sour?

Tastes good, but far from sour or tart.

... from a pre acidulated pH 4.5 to 3.5, ....

Uh oh. My starting pH was ballpark 5.3 -- is it necessary to start with a low pH before pitching the lacto?

Did you use any hops in the mash or wort? That Milk the Funk page lists that 5335 should be used in wort with ZERO hops.

I had 2.5 IBU of mash hops, well within Wyeast's recommendation of <10 IBU.

 

[finsfan]

I had 2.5 IBU of mash hops, well within of <10 IBU.

I saw that after seeing the recommendation off the link you posted. Interesting. I have a starter of 5335 going right now and am seeing a lot of airlock activity, even after a week or longer. I was under the impression that 5335 was homofermentative though. I just emailed Michael Dawson to get a better answer on that and will report back. I am going to be making a Berliner split with L Brevis and 5335 soon so Im interested to see how this plays out for you.

 

[finsfan]

Just got a reply back from Dawson. 5335 is HETEROfermentative. He said you will only see about 10% attenuation though. Not sure it helps your situation but thought id pass the info along!

 

[beerkench]

Uh oh. My starting pH was ballpark 5.3 -- is it necessary to start with a low pH before pitching the lacto?

.

I don't think it's necessary. My point was that it took 4 days to drop from the 4.5 to 3.5 so you should have some patience.

 

[finsfan]

Its too late now, but mashing low (ph of 4.8 or so) will result in better head retention in a Berliner. Could also help to acidity the wort quicker before primary fermentation as well.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Its too late now, but mashing low (ph of 4.8 or so) will result in better head retention in a Berliner. Could also help to acidity the wort quicker before primary fermentation as well.

Thanks. I did a bit of reading up, but never came across that advice, which does seem quite sound. Will do that next time around.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Now after 5 days I'm still at 4.4 and throwing in the towel.Another pH vs. Time graph indicates it's pretty much done by day 4 or 5.

So I just added 20 capsules of PB8 Probiotic, which I carefully selected after an exhaustive scientific study of what my wife had in the refrigerator. It's a blend of lactobacillus acidophilus, bifidobacterium lactis, lactobacillus plantarum, lactobacillus salivarius, bifidobacterium bifidum, bifidobacterium longum, lactobacillus rhamnosus, and lactobacillus casei. 20 capsules should be 140 B cells (into 4.3 gal wort).

The plan is to hold at 98F, watch pH closely over the next couple days, and pasteurize once the pH hits about 3.5 in preparation for the German Ale yeast. Wish me luck!

 

[Calder]

I have used probiotics before, and it has taken 7 to 8 days at 100 F, but it did a great job.

The lacto I used likes ZERO hops; 1 IBU is probably too much. I tried it in some starter wort which had a token amount of hops added for less than 5 minutes, and it didn't do anything. Used the same on zero hopped wort and it turned out great.

 

[SpeedYellow]

An update: the PB8 probiotics got pH down only to 4.0, so I added 15 priobiotic pills from Walgreens (L. Rhamnosus GG and L. Acidophilus); 30 billion units. Nothing. Dumped the whole batch.

So I'm starting a new batch but doing it properly, by making 3 starters of different lacto types, and I'll pitch the one that comes out best. It's looking like Goodbelly Mango will win (L. Plantarum 299V, pH of 3.36 after 42 hrs). Seems that Wyeast 5335 just can't cut it.

This Berliner Weisse stuff is tricky!!

 

[SpeedYellow]

To anyone researching Wyeast's 5335, I've concluded that it's just not a good strain for proper souring. In addition to some anecdotes from others with 5335 problems, here is some data.

1) Omega Labs looked at WY 5335 with some other sources and could only get pH down to 3.61.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=538153

2) In a comparo at HommelHomeBrew, they could only get the pH down to 3.54.
http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?cat=38

3) In a comparo at Milkthefunk, WY 5335 could only hit pH of 3.5.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lac...acillus_strains_and_their_pH_change_over_time

 

[505-Brewer]

I've tried and am still trying all sorts of commercial bugs but by far the best and most cost effective has been simply making a starter with some uncrushed grain.
Had some complexity and not just lacto flavored and soured to 3.6 with a good dextrinous wort including raw spelt, oats, wheat etc. and 5-10 I us. Mashed at 154 I think. Ready to drink in 3 weeks (pitch yeast/lacto brevis or wait for a yeast infection to create a krausen and finish it-haha).

I would like to try the omega blend next. Would be nice to knock out and just let it sour while it's cooling.

Have a starter using rye malt going now. Going to compare to my Crooked Stave Brett/bug starter next.

 

[dantheman13]

I have used probiotics before, and it has taken 7 to 8 days at 100 F, but it did a great job.

The lacto I used likes ZERO hops; 1 IBU is probably too much. I tried it in some starter wort which had a token amount of hops added for less than 5 minutes, and it didn't do anything. Used the same on zero hopped wort and it turned out great.

Yep, if people stopped using hops with first generation Lacto cultures, they would have better results. Even with the "hop tolerant" species.

 

[cowboys703]

Yep, if people stopped using hops with first generation Lacto cultures, they would have better results. Even with the "hop tolerant" species.

Are you saying that if I use the yeast slurry from a no-hop batch I should be ok to use a tiny bit of hops the next time around? I am a bit freaked out about the idea of not using any hops

 

[worlddivides]

Are you saying that if I use the yeast slurry from a no-hop batch I should be ok to use a tiny bit of hops the next time around? I am a bit freaked out about the idea of not using any hops

In the sour worting method, you sour the wort in a small fermenter for several days at 0 IBUs (no hops added), then when it's sour enough, you add the wort to the kettle, boil it, killing off all living organisms in it, then do your standard boil, adding your hops (which for a Berliner Weisse is just a small amount of bittering hops). I have heard of people hopping before sour worting or during sour mashing, but that's not the norm. It's normally done after the souring has completed since even very small amount of hops can inhibit a lot of strains of Lactobacillus.

So, there's nothing to freak out about! Your beer will have IBUs from hops in the regular primary fermentation.

 

[cowboys703]

In the sour worting method, you sour the wort in a small fermenter for several days at 0 IBUs (no hops added), then when it's sour enough, you add the wort to the kettle, boil it, killing off all living organisms in it, then do your standard boil, adding your hops (which for a Berliner Weisse is just a small amount of bittering hops). I have heard of people hopping before sour worting or during sour mashing, but that's not the norm. It's normally done after the souring has completed since even very small amount of hops can inhibit a lot of strains of Lactobacillus.

So, there's nothing to freak out about! Your beer will have IBUs from hops in the regular primary fermentation.

Can I do like I've seen in other brews and just boil the hops separately and add it after it cools down a bit? Just thinking that it might be a bit of a pain in the ass to transfer it from my fermenters and boil it

 

[Agate]

If you want a hoppy sour beer, the best way is to get a quick souring pure strain, like omega oyl-605, good belly, or Swanson lacto-p, and just sour it right in the boil kettle for 18-24 hours. If you give it a good lacto pitch, you should be at a low enough pH (3.2-3.5) within 24 hours. Bring it to a short boil, add flameout hops, or whatever hop addition to the IBU level you want, and pitch your yeast.

Flameout or whirlpool hops in a lacto sour are absolutely incredible, by the way! Galaxy, citra... Any great IPA hop is fantastic.

 

[dantheman13]

Are you saying that if I use the yeast slurry from a no-hop batch I should be ok to use a tiny bit of hops the next time around? I am a bit freaked out about the idea of not using any hops

No, I'd say that you could train a species that is hop tolerant genetically (brevis), but I haven't heard a lot of success from people who have tried doing this. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's clearly not easy to "train" Lacto into being hop tolerant.

I don't know why you are freaked out about not using hops. Its just an ingredient, and one of the properties of this ingredient is to inhibit Lactobacillus... which is not what you want. You also generally don't want bitterness because it clashes with acidity. If you are required by law to use hops, try mash hopping at the minimal amount necessary. Or better yet dry hop the beer afterwards. If you are kettle souring, you can add hops during the second boil. There's no reason to be OCD about using hops.

 

[Agate]

^^^ Truth.

 

[worlddivides]

Yeah, I think I already said this on the previous page, but hops were mainly implemented into beers because they significantly inhibited certain bacteria, primarily Lactobacillus... which is EXACTLY what you're trying to ferment with here, so you don't want the hops doing what they're supposed to.

Can I do like I've seen in other brews and just boil the hops separately and add it after it cools down a bit? Just thinking that it might be a bit of a pain in the ass to transfer it from my fermenters and boil it

Well, there is the method of sour kettling (which I actually just learned about myself for the first time about two weeks ago), where you sour the wort in the kettle instead of in a fermenter. But those are the 3 "quick souring" methods: sour mashing, sour kettling, and sour worting.

I can't really imagine how any of them could be a "pain in the ass," since a traditional Berliner Weisse would take up to a year to make, but any of those quick souring methods can cut that down to a month or so.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Yeah, I think I already said this on the previous page, but hops were mainly implemented into beers because they significantly inhibited certain bacteria, primarily Lactobacillus... which is EXACTLY what you're trying to ferment with here, so you don't want the hops doing what they're supposed to.

^^ THIS! I eventually concluded that you really shouldn't use ANY hops pre-souring. Hops inhibit souring, that's simply what they do. Several batches now have soured nice and quickly with zero hops.

Even if you *could* find hop-resistant lacto, I would NEVER EVER want that inside my house. Just asking for future problems.

 

[Mainer]

I pitched a Berliner Weisse a week and a half ago and ran 2/3 of the wort into lacto-only fermentation with 5335. The other 1/3 I ran into a Kolsch fermentation (Wyeast 2565). I let 10 days go by, and got basically no movement on the lacto. I'm not testing for pH, but the taste didn't change at all. It still tasted just like fresh wort.

Yesterday I decided to just run them together for secondary and hope for the best. The 2565 is relatively low attenuation, so if I'm lucky it'll leave enough sugar behind for the lacto to play a little bit. If not, I'll just end up with 5 gallons of really boring hefeweizen.

 

[cowboys703]

I pitched a Berliner Weisse a week and a half ago and ran 2/3 of the wort into lacto-only fermentation with 5335. The other 1/3 I ran into a Kolsch fermentation (Wyeast 2565). I let 10 days go by, and got basically no movement on the lacto. I'm not testing for pH, but the taste didn't change at all. It still tasted just like fresh wort.

Yesterday I decided to just run them together for secondary and hope for the best. The 2565 is relatively low attenuation, so if I'm lucky it'll leave enough sugar behind for the lacto to play a little bit. If not, I'll just end up with 5 gallons of really boring hefeweizen.

Did you do anything to lower the pH at all? I brewed with some acid malts and added a bit of lactic acid at the end. I also made a pretty strong starter that I grew at about 95 degrees

 

[Mainer]

No. I was brewing from extract, so acid mash wasn't an option.

 

[worlddivides]

What temperature did you have the wort at? Lacto works best at 110-118F, but you can get good effects as low as 80F. Apparently anything over 120F is not a good idea, though. The lower the temperature the slower the Lacto works. That's my two cents...

 

[Mainer]

What temperature did you have the wort at? Lacto works best at 110-118F, but you can get good effects as low as 80F. Apparently anything over 120F is not a good idea, though. The lower the temperature the slower the Lacto works. That's my two cents...

Wyeast lists the optimal temperature for 5665 as 60-80. I was keeping it someplace around 70.

 

[worlddivides]

Wyeast lists the optimal temperature for 5665 as 60-80. I was keeping it someplace around 70.

But that's for regular slow souring that takes place over months and months, right?

 

[Mainer]

But that's for regular slow souring that takes place over months and months, right?

Yeah, it's slow. That's why I decided to just run them together and let the yeast do its thing and let the lacto take the leftovers. I've been told the lacto will take up to three months to finish off, but without the yeast producing alcohol, I was worried about cross-contamination. I think I'll just let the yeast finish up, then bottle and leave it to condition til July. I won't want to drink a Berliner til the summer anyway.