An off season saison, recipe help.

[Queequeg]

I am planning on doing this for my next brew, this is what I have so far. (pleas excuse the slightly weird measures they are converted from brewsmith)


Batch size 6.5G

Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 8.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 29.7 IBUs
Estimated FG 1.005
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
8 lbs 9.5 oz Pilsen (Dingemans) (3.2 EBC) Grain 1 61.0 %

2 lbs 1.8 oz Rye Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC) Grain 2 15.0 %

1 lbs 6.5 oz Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 3 10.0 %

1 lbs 0.9 oz Rye, Flaked (3.9 EBC) Grain 4 7.5 %

0.42 oz Warrior [16.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 20.7 IBUs

0.49 oz Motueka [5.90 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 6 5.2 IBUs

0.50 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 days) Other 8 -

0.49 oz Motueka [5.90 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 3.1 IBUs

2oz Ginger Root (Boil 5.0 mins) Herb 10 -

0.99 oz Motueka [5.90 %] - Boil 1.0 min Hop 11 0.7 IBUs


Mash at 148F, batch sparge

French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711), starter to achieve 0.5M/cells/ml/plato


Add the 14.7 oz of Dememera Sugar as fermentation slows.

Option of dry spicing in primary if the ginger flavour does not come through.

What temp schedule for fermentation would you suggest? I am thinking pitch low (65F) and ramp to 80F as fermentation progresses.

Also some feedback on hoping rates would be welcome.

Thanks
Q

 

[JKaranka]

Check what esters does your yeast produce at those temps. I like low with Saison when that means clove and spice. Re: hops, I prefer less late and more for bittering to get more out of the yeast. But I like Saisons, pale and straight. I'd even reduce the rye to half...

 

[mb82]

The grainbill looks OK to me. I personally don't do much with late hops in my Saisons, usually I just bittering hops them and that's it.

 

[Queequeg]

Check what esters does your yeast produce at those temps. I like low with Saison when that means clove and spice. Re: hops, I prefer less late and more for bittering to get more out of the yeast. But I like Saisons, pale and straight. I'd even reduce the rye to half...

Ok looking at what others suggest for temp schedule the general rule seems to be fermenting at 65 will produce most spice and phenols, upping the temp to low 70's will produced more subtle fruity esters, mainly citrus and sometimes banana (when the pitch rate is low, so I will probably pitch at 0.75M/ml/plato to avoid the banana)

I think I will pitch at 65F, keep it there for a few days and then ramp slowly to 72F to finish off.

As for hops I have read repeatedly that Citra goes really well with 3711, however I have just finished a Citra beer so I don't want to use that again.

Motueka is supposed to be quite lemony with some pine/dank.

 

[Queequeg]

The grainbill looks OK to me. I personally don't do much with late hops in my Saisons, usually I just bittering hops them and that's it.

I think I might dial back the rye slightly, perhaps to 15% in total.

 

[mb82]

I think I might dial back the rye slightly, perhaps to 15% in total.

My favorite rye saison I have made at this point had 25% malted rye in it. Normally I am right around 20% rye in mine though.

 

[Queequeg]

Does it not dry the beer out too much? When I think of rye I always think of it will some sweetness to balance it. My worry is a saison is pretty dry anyway, that why I have included the Munich malt to try and balance the rye.

 

[mb82]

I like my saisons like the Atacama desert, very dry.

 

[Queequeg]

Atacama season would be a good name

 

[Bosh]

Does it not dry the beer out too much? When I think of rye I always think of it will some sweetness to balance it. My worry is a saison is pretty dry anyway, that why I have included the Munich malt to try and balance the rye.

A lot of saison yeasts still dry out the freaking ocean but produce a surprisingly full mouthfeel.

Also different yeasts produce different flavors, I've been using Belle Saison all summer and have never gotten the slightest hint of spice. Tastes a lot like your standard Belgian beer just drier.

 

[WI_Wino]

My favorite saison I did this year I dry hopped with Sorachi Ace. I wouldn't drink more than one a night but the aroma/flavors of lemon and dill with the saison yeast was fantastic.

 

[WakeyOz]

Stick to around 20-25% Rye,
Interesting hop choice for the style which has me intrigued.
My last batch i just kept it classic with Styrian goldings for bittering only.

If you pitch that yeast low for the initial period it will be less funky on the aroma. Give it more heat to 85f and you'll get some amazing ester aroma from it.

Hope this helps.

 

[m00ps]

For a fermentation profile, pitch it in the mid 60s (though even 70s you should be fine) and let it free rise. If you can, insulate the fermentor with a heavy blanket or jacket. I usually let this go for 24-48hrs before bumping it up to the 90s. This gets the most prominent saison yeast character IME with no off flavors. It also helps attenuation even more

for 3711 it will yield a very bright lemony yeast zip. It should go very well with mouteka so I wouldnt skimp on the late hops

I think you could up the flaked rye if you wanted. A decent amount fo flaked anythign goes very well in saisons to combat the high attenuation causing a thin body. Luckily, 3711 helps with mouthfeel too. I have never had a saison that I though was too dry...

Im not a fan of munich in saisons though. When I tried it, it kinda of took over the beer and had a very muted yeast character. Maybe I just overdid it though

 

[Queequeg]

Thanks guys, lots of stuff to consider.

m00ps: how much munich did you use when it proved overpowering?

I can't free rise easily because I have a brewpi setup, but I can control ramp easily enough.

WakeyOz: I have heard a lot of the NZ fruity hops go really well in saisons, tropical fruits, lemon and lime should be good.

I think I am going to dial back the ginger, following some reading to 0.25oz, as I can always make a tea later.

I am making it this coming weekend, the starter is fermenting right now.

 

[m00ps]

Thanks guys, lots of stuff to consider.

m00ps: how much munich did you use when it prove overpowering?

I can't free rise easily because I have a brewpi setup, but I can control ramp easily enough.

WakeyOz: I have heard a lot of the NZ fruity hops go really well in saisons, tropical fruits, lemon and lime should be good.

I think I am going to dail back the ginger, following some reading to 0.25oz, as I can always make a tea later.

I am making it this coming weekend, the starter is fermenting right now.

I used 2lb in 5gal. But this was also the first time I used YB Wallonian Farmhouse for the yeast strain. From further experimentation (see here) Ive found that this yeast tends to accentuate malt character more than other saison yeasts. Its ironic, considering how well it attenuates. Anyway, I think if I had used a different yeast, it wouldnt have been so prominent

 

[Queequeg]

Ok cool, I upped the flaked rye slightly (10%) and lower the munich slightly(6%).

Too free rise, I could just set my brewpi chamber to stay an 65F and then put a fleece blanket over the fermenter. What you think?

 

[HumbleBrew]

With the French Saison strain (3711), I find it not so necessary to push the temp so high. I've brewed several saisons it - I'll usually start around 69-70 and ramp it up to 74-75 over a few days, but I don't think it's necessary to go much higher. I've also kept it at 70 for the entire fermentation and got plenty of spicy, phenolic character and an FG of 1.002.

If you use the Dupont strain though, that's a different animal.

 

[Queequeg]

Brewday went smoothly. After tasting the starter brewed at 72F and reading a few threads regarding how the esters from 3771 can over power the rest of the beer when fermented high I have gone for a 65F fermentation temp to promote spice/phenols. I don't think I will even ramp at the end as apparently 3771 doesn't need it as HumbleBrew points out.