American Pale Ale with Saison yeast?

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I recently built a keggle and am into split batches resulting in me getting two carboys full with 5.5 gallons at the end of the day.

I wanted to brew up a hoppy red ale I made last year, (only 5 Gal made at the time, used american ale yeast- recipe below) but I was thinking about using a saison yeast for the second half of the batch. Has anyone tried something like this? Will the saison yeast mesh well with american hops? I've had belgian IPAs and liked them plenty, but I am into saisons and just got this yeast from a local company which has a pretty dynamic flavor profile when used in a standard saison wort.

If this is a bad idea any other suggestions for the second half of this split batch are welcome.

(Grain:
10.0 lb American 2-row
2 lb Vienna
12 oz Crystal 40L
8 oz Crystal 80L
2 oz Black Patent (~500L)
1 lb Extra Light Dry Malt Extract


Hop Pellets:
1 oz Summit (boil for 60 min)
2 oz Centennial (boil for 15 min)
2 oz Simcoe (at flame out)

 

[stpug]

I would say it's absolutely worth a try. If you don't try it then you'll never know. PLUS, we can be the beneficiaries of your endeavors. Do it and let us know how it works out. I suspect it will turn out as a saisony pale ale (fruity and hoppy malty beer).

BTW, that yeast strain sounds a lot like Wyeast 3726PC. I've used 3726 several times and it is distinctly fruity and tart; not real big on the spicy character. Excellent saison strain.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I would say it's absolutely worth a try. If you don't try it then you'll never know. PLUS, we can be the beneficiaries of your endeavors. Do it and let us know how it works out. I suspect it will turn out as a saisony pale ale (fruity and hoppy malty beer).

BTW, that yeast strain sounds a lot like Wyeast 3726PC. I've used 3726 several times and it is distinctly fruity and tart; not real big on the spicy character. Excellent saison strain.

Thanks for the input, do you think a more 'spicy' saison strain would be more appropriate for the hoppiness? like 3711?

 

[stpug]

I don't think I have a good answer for that. I suspect that the strain you have will produce something more inline with the Belgian IPAs you've had as most tend to use a fruit-characterful yeast strain, as opposed to a more spicy strain like 3711 or Belle Saison. If I had to pick one, I would choose a more fruity strain than spicy, but it may be 6's.

 

[tagz]

One issue you might have us FG. 50 ibus in a 1.012 beer tastes a lot different than 50 ibus in a 1.002 beer.

 

[Bearfoot]

One issue you might have us FG. 50 ibus in a 1.012 beer tastes a lot different than 50 ibus in a 1.002 beer.

Agreed, and 3711 is a beast of a saison strain in terms of attenuation.

I still say go for it, while keeping IBU's in mind, though I might suggest WLP550 for a nice Belgo-American IPA

 

[BigPerm]

Thanks for the input, do you think a more 'spicy' saison strain would be more appropriate for the hoppiness? like 3711?

I did this about a year ago. 10 gallons of standard issue IPA, half-fermented with 1056 the other with 3711. Only difference between the two was the yeast and the dry hops. IIRC, the 3711 finished at 1.004, and while it was dry, didn't overtly accentuate the hop bitterness. The finished beer was fruity, crisp and hoppy and IMO ended up better than the other. You'll get some glycerol production with that yeast that will buffer the dryness and the accentuation of bitterness.

In other words, do it!

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I did this about a year ago. 10 gallons of standard issue IPA, half-fermented with 1056 the other with 3711. Only difference between the two was the yeast and the dry hops. IIRC, the 3711 finished at 1.004, and while it was dry, didn't overtly accentuate the hop bitterness. The finished beer was fruity, crisp and hoppy and IMO ended up better than the other. You'll get some glycerol production with that yeast that will buffer the dryness and the accentuation of bitterness.

In other words, do it!

Sounds great BigPerm, thanks for the input! However my yeast is similar to Wyeast 3726PC, do you still think this will work well?

 

[usmclar1]

I've experimented with Belgo IPAs a bunch over the last few years and this is what I have found best suits my taste:

1) When using a saison yeast, use a clean bittering hop and move the flavor additions to a 5 min aroma addition and keep the malt bill simple (2-row and a touch of c60 and/or a very small touch of honey when I feel adventurous).

2) When using a more 'standard' (if such a thing exists) belgian strain, 15 minute additions are most delicious. However, more piney, slightly citrusy hops (simcoe, c hops) work better than the NZ fruit bomb varieties. In my opinion, something is lost when those are used in conjunction with the already fruity yeast.

3) Belgian Ardennes über alles.

Those are just some of my observations when playing with the style. IPAs and APAs fermented with belgian strains are hands down my favorites and I brew them a lot. In all my experimenting I haven't had a beer that I was disappointed in, but the above information have been common denominators when making the best of them. Mess with it a bit or not, I would wager that you're going to brew an enjoyable beer.

 

[BigPerm]

Sounds great BigPerm, thanks for the input! However my yeast is similar to Wyeast 3726PC, do you still think this will work well?

Well, I'd still do it...

I like a yeast with a little bit of a fruity character (like 3711) to accentuate the hops, but honestly, the hops can get a little lost in the saison esters sometimes anyway. Without having used your yeast strain, I would certainly encourage you to try it, but maybe add a little more hops to incorporate some fruity character to complement and contrast the phenols. Thinking citra, mosaic, or more centennial, something in that vein. And be sure to dry hop; saisons stand up very well to moderate/aggressive dry hopping.

Remember, the saison side is an added bonus to doing 10 gals. At least this is how I think. I think it's a great idea.

From an ingredient standpoint, why the DME?

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

From an ingredient standpoint, why the DME?

Actually I got this recipe from my buddy a year ago when I just started, so I dont know and at the time I didn't ask questions (he knows what he's doing). I suppose it was just to end up with a bit bigger beer? It could certainly leave it out or perhaps increase the base grain bill a tad to get to the same OG. Also a disclaimer I've been very busy on house renovations this past year so I haven't gotten into recipe design at all, I just ask my buddy for a recipe for the style I want to make. I am getting a better grip of this lately though.

Thanks for the tips the plan is to brew this up next weekend, as i'm hosting an Oktoberfest party for 40+ friends this weekend and I think we're going to bleed the Keezer dry!

I love my new keggle and the possibilities such as this that it opens up. not to mention that with about the same time on brew-day invested I end up with two kegs of beer instead of one.

 

[Soyben]

I used WLP 568 saison ale blend one summer on an APA before I had a fermentation chamber since my house would be to warm for the recommended yeast. I really liked that batch and would brew it again if I could find the hops again.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I used WLP 568 saison ale blend one summer on an APA before I had a fermentation chamber since my house would be to warm for the recommended yeast. I really liked that batch and would brew it again if I could find the hops again.

What were the hops you used?

 

[Soyben]

They were Kazbek hops, they are normally discribed as a spicer Saaz.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I brewed up this experiment yesterday. I'll report on the results once it's kegged/tasted.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I brewed up this experiment yesterday. I'll report on the results once it's kegged/tasted.

I went with the following straightforward IPA recipe (11 gallon recipe)

25lbs 20row
1 pound crystal 40L
8oz Munich 20L

hopped 1OZ summit at 60min, 4 oz centennial at 15 min, 4oz centennial at flame out. I used my measly 4oz (wet) hop harvest from my first year bines with the flame out as well.

This yielded an OG of 1.067 into the fermentors.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I checked this beer today and she was at 1.010 and already tasted great, which is a really good sign. The hops worked really well with the complex profile from the yeast and they both seemed to compliment each-other well. I added an ounce of centennial for dry hopping and hope to keg it up wednesday or thursday.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

This beer turned out awesome!

this baby ended at 1.006 so I got 8% out of it and maaaan does it taste great. The hops are there but significantly downplayed, the complex esters of yeast work really well with the toned-down hops. I absolutely love it.

Since it's such a big farmhouse ale i'm calling it The Big Pig.

I'll try and get up a picture as well.

 

[rupert130]

This beer turned out awesome!

this baby ended at 1.006 so I got 8% out of it and maaaan does it taste great. The hops are there but significantly downplayed, the complex esters of yeast work really well with the toned-down hops. I absolutely love it.

Since it's such a big farmhouse ale i'm calling it The Big Pig.

I'll try and get up a picture as well.

Holy sh*t, that's 91% apparent attenuation. Quite a bit more than the advertised 74-79%.

I have a vial of this awaiting a brew planned in Dec. I also plan to rack half off after primary and add a vial of Brett C and let it go for a another few months.

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Saison
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.042
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.058
Final Gravity: 1.006
ABV (standard): 6.72%
IBU (tinseth): 33.13
SRM (morey): 3.58

FERMENTABLES:
8 lb - American - Pilsner (76.2%)
1 lb - American - Rye (9.5%)
1 lb - American - Wheat (9.5%)
0.5 lb - Belgian Candi Sugar - Clear/Blond (4.8%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Mosaic, Type: Pellet, AA: 11.2, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 20.75
0.5 oz - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.4, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 4.05
0.5 oz - Pacifica, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.2, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 4.78
0.5 oz - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 4.4, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 1.63
0.5 oz - Pacifica, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.2, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 1.92

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 148 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 7.5 gal, BIAB
2) Temperature, Temp: 170 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 0 qt, BIAB

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.5 each - Whirlfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
1 tsp - Yeast Nutrient, Time: 10 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil
0.5 each - Campden Tablet, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Default - - -
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 89%
Flocculation: Med
Optimum Temp: 66 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 70 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Dextrose
CO2 Level: 3.5 Volumes

What fermentation temperature profile did you use? Did you ramp or just keep it in the 70's?

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

What fermentation temperature profile did you use? Did you ramp or just keep it in the 70's?

You know the first time i used this I started it at 68 for 3-4 days and SLOWLY ramped the temp up to about 85 over the course of two weeks. It only gave me about 65% attenuation.

I repitched from that slurry this time, and I used mr malty to tell me the viability of my ~1.5 month old yeast to get the correct starter size. With that being said I had like a 2.2L starter for my ~ 150ml of slurry and it just seemed like a ****-ton of yeast to me. The fermentation did not seem like an overpitch to me but I just wanted to let you know that potential variable.

Since i got bad attenuation last time starting at 68 I wanted to be more aggressive with my temperatures this time. I started at 70 for the first 2 days, then things started to slow just a bit so I ramped to 72 for a day, 74 for days 3-5, and then jumped up to 85 for days 5-9 (I think I did that ramp in 2 steps about 12 hours apart). I checked it at day 7 and 9 to make sure it was done. I like to tinker with my temps since I just built this bad boy.

It seemed to work beautifully, I had about 6 friends over this weekend and everyone was pulling from Big Pig way more than the IPA, which is also great. It is a superb beer and all my friends said so as well, so it's not just my brewers bias!

Your recipe looks great, I would definitely consider a bit of dark candi sugar next time to add another little layer of complexity.

Also be aware this yeast does not flocculate well at all! You'll need 2-3 days to let your starter settle out, and it remains very cloudy even now about halfway through the keg. Although that is what a farmhouse is to me so I like it.

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

What fermentation temperature profile did you use? Did you ramp or just keep it in the 70's?

You know I just contacted INIBC b/c I bought a vial of their german lager yeast from Barleyhaven and they didn't have any info about the strain online. I got in touch with them via email and I also mentioned my success with BiG PiG (which continues to get better with age over the past few weeks). They want to put the recipe up on the website so I tracked down my brew log and extracted the exact temperature profile I used, posted below for you.

BiG PiG: Imperial Farmhouse Ale
94% pale malt (2-row US)
4% Caramel 40L
2% Munich 20L
60 min - Summit, bittered to ~63 IBUs
15 min - 4 oz Centennial per 11.5 gal
0 min - 4 oz Centennial per 11.5 gal
Dry Hop – 1 oz Centennial per 5 gal

OG 1.067
FG 1.006
Oxygenated for 30 seconds with O2 stone prior to pitching
Pitching rate of 0.75M/ml/degree plato
Pitched @ 68F, let self-rise to 70F
Raise temp to 72F at 36 hrs, hold for 36 hrs
Raise temp to 75F for days 3-5
Raise temp to 85F on day 6
Raise temp to 95F on day 7 (hold for 2 days)
Lower temp to 85F until fermentation was complete (2 days in this case).

I think I did those last two big jumps in temp in 5F steps done ~ 12 hours apart, FWIW.

 

[rupert130]

Pitched @ 68F, let self-rise to 70F
Raise temp to 72F at 36 hrs, hold for 36 hrs
Raise temp to 75F for days 3-5
Raise temp to 85F on day 6
Raise temp to 95F on day 7 (hold for 2 days)
Lower temp to 85F until fermentation was complete (2 days in this case).

I think I did those last two big jumps in temp in 5F steps done ~ 12 hours apart, FWIW.

Thanks for the info, I will be sure to post my results with this yeast as soon as I have a chance to brew with it.

 

[rupert130]

I brewed with the saison strain on 20 Dec. Primary is complete and the beer has cleared. I am bottling 2.5 gallons tomorrow and I will pitch INISBC Brett Barrel Yeast III into the remaining 2.5 gallons. Will update with results

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I brewed with the saison strain on 20 Dec. Primary is complete and the beer has cleared. I am bottling 2.5 gallons tomorrow and I will pitch INISBC Brett Barrel Yeast III into the remaining 2.5 gallons. Will update with results

sounds like a fun exbeeriment!

 

[rupert130]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=510340

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=510340

Sounds like it turned out really well, glad to hear it!

I just yesterday kegged my first brew using the INISBC 222 Belgian Gnome strain. I did 85% pilsner, 10% wheat, 5% oats low IBU saison base and it turned out fantastic. I am looking forward to trying this strain on some similar belgian-pale ales as well.

 

[rupert130]

Sounds like it turned out really well, glad to hear it!

I just yesterday kegged my first brew using the INISBC 222 Belgian Gnome strain. I did 85% pilsner, 10% wheat, 5% oats low IBU saison base and it turned out fantastic. I am looking forward to trying this strain on some similar belgian-pale ales as well.

Awesome, Gnome is one of their strains that I would like to try in the future. Between work and family, brewing gets pushed to the wayside more often than not. My next project (August sometime) will be to give their 003 Colorado IPA yeast another go. Apparently, the one I attempted to use before was from a "bad batch" and I ended up pitched US-05 to get it fermenting. I will probably split the 10 gallon batch three ways and use WYeast Kolsch II, INISBC CO IPA, and INISBC Brett Barrel Yeast III. I try to get as many different beers as possible out of one batch. It will be an Amarillo APA.

Please update me on how Gnome tastes all carbed up.
Any recipe/measurement specifics?

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

Awesome, Gnome is one of their strains that I would like to try in the future. Between work and family, brewing gets pushed to the wayside more often than not. My next project (August sometime) will be to give their 003 Colorado IPA yeast another go. Apparently, the one I attempted to use before was from a "bad batch" and I ended up pitched US-05 to get it fermenting. I will probably split the 10 gallon batch three ways and use WYeast Kolsch II, INISBC CO IPA, and INISBC Brett Barrel Yeast III. I try to get as many different beers as possible out of one batch. It will be an Amarillo APA.

Please update me on how Gnome tastes all carbed up.
Any recipe/measurement specifics?

you know i'm doing this with a 2 week old in the house, so i doubt I will remember to go look at my brew log when I get home. I'll try and remember to update once I get a glass of the carbed version, but I'm very optimistic.

my OG was a little high as I was trying to figure out a new process involving overnight mashing (see baby above) and am dialing in that efficiency, I went from 1.066 to 1.006, with a mash at ~149. so i got better than the rated attenuation from the strain. I pitched at 65, stayed there for 2 days, then raised the temp 1 degree C each day until I reached 75F, where I stayed until i'd been in primary 2 weeks.

If your short on time look into overnight mashing, I have a thread on it where I compiled some of the info I found on here. I've used it for my last two brews and it cuts my saturday brew time down significantly. This last batch (12 gallon batch) I was done with cleanup and pitched by 11am, when previosly that was 2 or 3pm. you only need to bump-up your dough-in temp ~3-4 degrees, and cover your cooler with a sleeping bag or something, i've only seen 8 degree drops in about 10 hours both times using a coleman extreme cooler.