Allagash Curieux Clone

[WolvinMaine]

One other thing, all of the curieux is not barrel aged. They age some in barrels for about 8 weeks, and then blend it with the triple to make the final beer. I don't remember the ratio, but it would change based on the oak profile of each barrel. Obviously, as a homebrewer this is harder to do, but if you love the style, you can brew a large batch, have some oaked, and blend them together to your taste. This way you could control the oak better, and more closely reproduce the beer.

Anyway, great project, and good luck!

 

[1Mainebrew]

Yeah I remember that from the tour too, but at the time I had a lack of empty carboys, so I just went for it and figured for simplicity sake, I would oak the whole batch. Thanks for all of the interest everybody. I didn't expect this to be so interesting to anyone. Thanks!

 

[stevehollx]

Well a 60 gallon rain barrel is 24" diameter by 28" high.

That's:

Two discs of 12" radius squared * pi = 452.16 sq in. each
1 rectangle of circumference (24*pi) * height (28) = 2110
Total surface area = 3014

2014 sq in/60 gall = 50 sq in per gallon.

So a 5 gallon batch needs ~250 sq in.

I don't have oak cubes on hand to measure the average face, but if we assume 1" cubes, that means 6" of surface area per cube, so you would need ~42 cubes to get the same surface area ration that a 60gal wine barrel gets.

I'm getting some cubes in this weekend, and I can measure the average face length, get a weight, and report back with the recommended weight.

Okay to finish the oak calculation.

The cubes I have are about just shy of 1/2" cubes. I measured three and the average surface area comes out to about 1.06 sq inches per cube.

This makes our target about 236 cubes.

10 cubes weigh 8g. So to get our 236 cubes, we're looking at 189g which is about 6.5 oz.

So there you have it. A 60 gallon barrel is equivalent to 6.5 oz of oak for a 5 gallon batch.

In practice, I'm not sure how much 6-7 oz of oak would actually fare, since that's on the high side of what people typically recommend.

 

[WolvinMaine]

A few things to keep in mind regarding that. First off, Bourbon barrels have already had much of their oakiness stripped by the aging of the spirit. That is why brewers and the Scottish distillers use these barrels, so they are not overpowering. Secondly, barrels are built so there is very little end grain exposure, where you will get much deeper penetration of the liquid, and conversely more extraction. Obviously, you have significant end grain exposure with cubes. Cubes are usually fresh, and even boiling them for a while or putting them in vodka will not duplicate the months to years of aging the barrels get from the Bourbon makers. While your surface area calculations maybe correct, there are these other variables that will make it very difficult to have this bear out exactly. 6 oz of oak cubes in a beer would overpower pretty much anything in a very short order, and once it is oaked, there is no going back.

 

[1Mainebrew]

Good points wolvin!

 

[1Mainebrew]

Here's a picture from last week. I'm really having a hard time getting this to carb up. I increased the gas to 30 psi for the last week and I will recheck the carbonation after work and repost. At least the color is on par.

 

[Corey_James]

What was your mash and fermentation temps if I may ask?

 

[1Mainebrew]

149 f for mash
70 f for fermentation week 1
78 f for fermentation week 2
70 f for fermentation weeks 3,4

 

[1Mainebrew]

Much better! And the taste is amazing! It's just getting better! The more it's aging the more the faint coconut aroma and flavor is kicking in. I'm very pleased!

 

[WolvinMaine]

How did you end up doing the oak?

 

[1Mainebrew]

How did you end up doing the oak?

See post #20 of this thread. If its still not clear I will try and clarify.

 

[1Mainebrew]

So I have the Curieux keg aging in the crawl space right now while I have a Schwarzbier Lager in the kegerator for fermentation purposes, and once that is taken out for a D-rest, I will probably put the keg of Curieux back in the kegerator and bottle the rest of the batch up for long-term aging and then will put the Munich Lager in that keg (after its been cleansed and sterilized) for the lagering phase. I will need my other keg for another Kate the Great clone that's in primary now.

I will try a bottle every month or so and keep the thread updated...

 

[browillard]

Awesome thread! I love this beer but am disappointed that the larger bottles do not contain the primary yeast strain. I actually collected the slurry from a couple of bottles to grow from the restaurant where I work.

I did not know that it was a Trippel but explains a lot of the flavors. I am aging an APA with chips made from Jack Daniels casks. I am curious how it will turn out...

 

[1Mainebrew]

I just had a glass yesterday after another month of lagering and let me say stellar! Just delicious and smooth without harshness. But it is powerful, be warned!

 

[dogbar]

Sparging on this right now. Couldn't be more excited about a beer I won't be drinking for at least six months

Thanks for all the work OP has put into documenting his progress on this one.

 

[1Mainebrew]

You're welcome! Just a little advice: IF you end up adding JB to the keg, add like 1/4 what you think you should. It will cut down on your aging.

 

[1Mainebrew]

How did the rest of the brew day go and are you having a strong ferment yet?

 

[dogbar]

It was a bit of an odd brew day, in that I had to take a break post-sparge to pick up my kids from daycare. I raised the temp up near boiling to ensure no more conversion, then killed the flame and made my trip. When I came back, there was a hellacious hot break. Huge clumps that were really easy to scoop out as I went back to boiling, with a possibly related end result (?) being a very, very clear beer going into the fermenter.

I'll need to read more about this

What were your calculated IBUs? I ended up having to futz with the hop schedule to make up for the seriously low AAs they had. Should really have checked those before I left the brew store.

 

[1Mainebrew]

My IBUs were 27

 

[dogbar]

Yeah, Brewsmith spit out 26 when I put the recipe in as-is. I ended up having to push all the hop additions to the beginning of the boil to get close to that.

Not super concerned given the style, but it's a good reminder to check the AAs at the store even when I'm not brewing something hoppier.

 

[dogbar]

Racked to secondary today with the three ounces of JB-soaked oak cubes. Have to say, I'm a little surprised at how smooth the sample was. If I weren't committed to the Curieux idea, I could probably be drinking this in a week or so.

How did you come up with the initial yeast blend? Just something that was on hand?

 

[1Mainebrew]

I wanted 2 smack packs of Belgian Ardennes, but the LHBS only had 1, so I asked for his recommendation and he said the wlp 550 was similar. So I grabbed them both and made up a crazy starter for this beast!

Yeah, this yeast combination results in a tremendously smooth tripel. I would make a tripel with this yeast combination again without the curiuex take on it. Its not hot at all and is drinkable right out of primary. Obviously, pitching sufficiently makes that possible, but its an amazingly good combination of yeast characteristics. I am actually drinking a glass of the clone right as I type!

I will take this as another opportunity to warn you against adding too much JB to the keg. You really don't need to add any, just let the JB soaked oak sit longer in secondary and you should be all set. If its still not enough, only add like 1/4 cup JB to the keg. Whatever you decide you will end up with a delicious clone. Its not like you couldn't tell the difference in a side by side, but its totally respectable! Thanks for your interest dogbar!

 

[1Mainebrew]

BTW, try this brew with straight NY cheesecake when its all ready- an amazing combination!

 

[nduetime]

I'm a little disappointed with my results. I followed (a mistake I'm not sure I'll make again) the recommendation of the LHBS and only used one yeast. I was told that mixing two types of yeast would result in one yeast taking over the second, essentially waisting money spent on the second yeast. It's been in the keg for about 4 days now and I'm not sure I'm pleased with it. Sure, my tastes good, but I know it can be better. It's almost too malty, like I'm drinking grain. Nothing I've ever experienced before.

I suppose I can let time do it's thing. I did a triple years ago and it turned out very "hot". I let it sit on some oak chips (without soaked in any liquor), threw it in a keg and forgot about it. I tapped that keg about 3 months ago after sitting for 3.5 years and WOW...talk about smooth. That beer along with my first taste of Curieux is what got me back into brewing. I'll have to certainly try this again, this time following the recipe/directions posted. Thanks again.

 

[dogbar]

I'm really not sure why so many LHBS try to stop people from buying two packs of yeast

 

[1Mainebrew]

You really need the two yeasts and the temperates to give the smooth, highly attenuated taste.

My father, who owns a brew pub, said recently that this beer is his favorite beer of all time. He's been bringing his friends over for a taste of this in brandy glasses.

Age is your friend with this beer. Let that grainy brew age for a while and your results will improve for sure. Happy brewing!

 

[dogbar]

Pulled a sample today after two weeks on the cubes. I didn't add any Beam to the secondary, following 1Mainebrew's advice, so it was just the soaked cubes.

I'm getting more oak than Beam at this point, but even that's pretty subtle. Cold and carbed, you wouldn't pick up on much of it.

Now that the yeastiness has calmed down, the higher alcohols are more obvious. My drinking "in a week or so" comment from before was off

Two more weeks on the wood, then the next tasting and a possible move to long-term aging in the keg, depending on where we're at.

 

[1Mainebrew]

If there is no bourbon flavor at all try adding 1/4 cup of JB to the long term conditioning keg. This keg that I added the 1 cup of JB to it was positively overpowering at first but has aged and mellowed amazingly well. That's why I previously stated "try adding 1/4 what you think you should.". Happy brewing!

 

[dogbar]

Yeah, I'm just being a little more cautious than usual here. I don't have much experience with adding oak or bourbon, and this is such a light flavored beer I would rather work my way there slowly than overshoot the mark.

This beer's going to need some age anyway, so if more of that time is spent letting the cubes do their thing, that's fine by me.

 

[1Mainebrew]

My only thought is that you might get more oak than bourbon flavor.

 

[dfess1]

Well you've convinced me sir. I'll be brewing up a batch of this this weekend in a marathon brew session. I have a 55 lb sack of Pilsen malt, and was looking for something to make with it other than the Schwarzbier I bought it for!

 

[1Mainebrew]

Well good for you! Make sure that you use both yeasts! Have fun!

 

[dfess1]

your lb of corn sugar, was that for the entire boil? last 15 min?

 

[1Mainebrew]

15 mins

 

[1Mainebrew]

Last 15 mins

 

[dogbar]

Kegged today after exactly one month on the cubes. The oak level is perfect, but I went back and forth for awhile on the Beam. It wasn't as apparent as I remember in the real thing -- although it's now been a few months since I last tasted it -- but as I added small amounts to the tasting glass, there seemed to be a razor thin margin between "still not enough" and "way too much."

Anyway, I went with 1/8th of a cup of JB added to the keg. May not be enough, but adding more is a lot easier than taking it out

Will post again when I have tasting notes.

 

[1Mainebrew]

I am having another glass and oh my word this just gets so much better with age! It's getting closer to the original the longer I age it at 36F in the kegerator. I'm very, very happy with this beer!

 

[dogbar]

This beer* is stupidly good. I wish I'd made 50 gallons, rather than five.

Ordinarily I'm happy to share the homebrew with anyone in the neighborhood who wants it. I take pitchers across the street for our semi-regular "get together and let the neighborhood kids tire each other out" Friday gatherings.

This beer will be shared by the shot glass, not the pitcher.

----
*I say "this beer" advisedly. I changed the recipe somewhat. Since I plan to make this beer many times, for the first attempt I ditched the CaraPils and corn sugar and went with 100% Belgian pilsner malt. I also mashed slightly warmer, at 153, because to me this isn't a thin beer. And as noted before, we did different things with the hop (by necessity) and bourbon (by recommendation) additions. So I don't think 1Mainebrew and I have made the exact same beer.

But a lot of that stuff is really just marginal adjustment and everyone's system is different anyway. The two keys I see are the dual yeast selections and the oaking schedule, both of which 1Mainebrew's recipe absolutely nails.

I'll be back in CA soon. I hope to be able to find Curieux somewhere so I can do a comparison to see how close the clone is. That will help determine adjustments for next time. Right now, I can't decide if I like where it is right now or if I want to try to dry it out a bit more. I think probably the latter, but I've already been told "changing anything would be crazy," so we'll see.

Thanks, OP. This was awesome.

 

[sacrifice]

Have not brewed a triple on over a year, so I will be doing this brew on Friday. Have the oak (French Oak) soaking, and did seperate starters for the yeast. The only thing I am going to do differently is use table rather than corn sugar.

 

[dogbar]

Ok, so I finally made it back to California this past weekend, which meant I could pick up a bottle of the real thing for a comparison tasting:

My wife and I started with blind triangle tasting (we each poured for each other). The beers were pretty darn close -- if not for the difference in yeast character, you could have convinced me that either one was the Curieux -- but distinguishable.

In this go round, there were five key differences:

1. Finishing gravity - As mentioned before, I brewed the recipe without sugar. The Allagash:

Was dryer than my version:

2. Belgian yeast character - The Allagash had FAR more Belgian character. This is where my fermentation options get me. I have a secondhand wine fridge I use to control temperatures. Unfortunately, it's only adjustable up to 65 degrees. I'm going to need to figure out a way to go warmer to match this beer.

3. Obviousness of the bourbon - I added just 1/8th of a cup of bourbon when I went into the keg, yet the Jim Beam is obvious as the glass nears your nose. In comparison, I almost had to fight to pick up the bourbon character in the Allagash. I feel like that hasn't been the case when I've had the beer before, so maybe the past couple weeks of drinking my version have re-set my palate? Or perhaps they have some batch-to-batch variation.

4. Clarity - Once we moved on from the plastic cups to actual glasses, the visual difference between the beers was pretty obvious:

The Allagash might clear if I let it sit in the fridge long enough.

5. My version doesn't set me back $17.99 for a 750 ml bottle - And at the end of the day, that might just be the biggest difference of all