All grains wonderful, extract is undrinkable

[mrduna01]

So I've had this issue since starting to Brew. I do a mix of all grain and extract... extract when I want the convenience of it. My all grain beers usually come out great but all extracts have this absolutely horrible off flavor. I can't put my thumb on what the flavor taste like so I can't describe it but every one has the same bad taste. I was thinking maybe something to do with the water but it doesn't make since that the all grain taste fine. Being in louisville ky where we have some of the best water in the country I wouldn't think it to be that but not sure. I treat the water with Camden for cloramine and that's it. It's definitely not anything to do with cleaning or sanitize process as it only happens with extract.

Seems also like the flavor is a lot more up front with darker beers... did an extract pale ale and then a brown ale on consecutive days. The pale ale had that taste in the background but not too overpowering to drink... the brown ale is sitting in a keg just until I get around to dumping it. Also no amount of aging has any affect on it as I have let some sit In a keg for months and it does not dissipate. HELP!

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[fartinmartin]

Are you boiling an extract that dose not need to be boiled ?
Could the taste to which you refer come from a hopped extract ?
Do your extract brews ferment any different ?
Is the sediment after fermentation any guide ?
Is this LML or DME ?
.
My all grain, whatever the recipe is always great, like yours, that's why I stick with all grain.
What about you trying an extract kit, adding nothing, just to see if it's your sundry ingredients? Or your extract recipe ?

 

[mrduna01]

Are you boiling an extract that dose not need to be boiled ?
Could the taste to which you refer come from a hopped extract ?
Do your extract brews ferment any different ?
Is the sediment after fermentation any guide ?
Is this LML or DME ?
.
My all grain, whatever the recipe is always great, like yours, that's why I stick with all grain.
What about you trying an extract kit, adding nothing, just to see if it's your sundry ingredients? Or your extract recipe ?

All of the recent kits have come from northern brewer with specialty grains and usually a mix of lme and dme. Grains are steeped at 160 and extract added per the instructions and also making sure to remove from heat to not burn the extract. All fermentation are uniform with both extract and all grain and yeast looks same after fermentation. Never used hopped extract.

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[mrduna01]

For example did the Caribou Slobber as well as the whitehouse porter from NB both of which I was looking forward to. Both ended up dumpers.. same exact horrible taste.

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[fartinmartin]

Are you hitting the OG and FG ?
Tell us about your hopping regime ?

 

[mrduna01]

Yes, kind of hard to miss on extract usually but yea no problems there. I hop per the instruction with the kit.

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[fartinmartin]

In that case, I'm left thinking about the hops and the hop regime.

 

[bleme]

When I first started out, I used Northern Brewer extracts and never had a problem. A BJCP certified judge tried several of my beers and didn't taste a problem.

I was going to say you could strike your LME source off as a possible cause but it is possible NB may have changed LME in the last year. It is probably something else in your process. Good luck!

 

[IvanBrew]

Are you doing full-wort, or concentrated boils with extract?

How much Camden do you use, and is the ratio of tablets/gallon the same from your all-grain to extract?

 

[mrduna01]

Would it be possible that since extract contains the minerals in the water used in manufacturing that my the minerals in my water are doubling the overall minerals and causing the issue? I hop the same in extract as I do all grain so I can't imagine a problem there.

So many beers... so little time.

 

[bleme]

For example did the Caribou Slobber as well as the whitehouse porter from NB both of which I was looking forward to. Both ended up dumpers.. same exact horrible taste.

I did the all grain version if their Caribou Slobber and at 7 weeks I thought it was the worst beer I've ever made. By 15 weeks I did a blind taste test side by side with Moose Drool and 6 of 10 preferred mine. They all said that the difference between the 2 was minimal.

 

[mrduna01]

When I first started out, I used Northern Brewer extracts and never had a problem. A BJCP certified judge tried several of my beers and didn't taste a problem.

I was going to say you could strike your LME source off as a possible cause but it is possible NB may have changed LME in the last year. It is probably something else in your process. Good luck!

I've had this problem for several years always using northernbrewer so I doubt they changed anything.

So many beers... so little time.

 

[fartinmartin]

I can't see it being a water issue as it's the same water used in the all grain.

 

[IvanBrew]

Would it be possible that since extract contains the minerals in the water used in manufacturing that my the minerals in my water are doubling the overall minerals and causing the issue? I hop the same in extract as I do all grain so I can't imagine a problem there.

So many beers... so little time.

I wouldn't "think" that mineral additions could make as large a difference in flavor as what you're describing. At least in my beers, mineral additions kind of fine-tune and tweak things, they've never caused major shifts...

Any chance one or all of the descriptors "skunk, rubber, vegetable" fit the flavor you're picking up?

 

[mrduna01]

Are you doing full-wort, or concentrated boils with extract?

How much Camden do you use, and is the ratio of tablets/gallon the same from your all-grain to extract?

Concentrated boils.. I usually use half a tablet in the steeping and boil water, half in the top off water but I sometimes forget to add to the top off water.

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[mrduna01]

I wouldn't "think" that mineral additions could make as large a difference in flavor as what you're describing. At least in my beers, mineral additions kind of fine-tune and tweak things, they've never caused major shifts...

Any chance one or all of the descriptors "skunk, rubber, vegetable" fit the flavor you're picking up?

No none of those descriptors really describe it. I've looked through all the off flavor list and causes and not one really puts a word to it.


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[mrduna01]

I did the all grain version if their Caribou Slobber and at 7 weeks I thought it was the worst beer I've ever made. By 15 weeks I did a blind taste test side by side with Moose Drool and 6 of 10 preferred mine. They all said that the difference between the 2 was minimal.

I'm glad yours turned out ok but I'm not dealing with an aging issue since I've aged some of these beers for months.

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[max384]

I noticed the exact same thing with extract brews compared to AG. Though, to be fair, I only did two extract batches before moving up to AG.

I think what we may be tasting is "extract twang."

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/extract-twang-what-54434/

 

[IvanBrew]

Concentrated boils.. I usually use half a tablet in the steeping and boil water, half in the top off water but I sometimes forget to add to the top off water.

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Are you using roughly the same number of tablets/gallon in your all-grain beers?

I don't use Camden tablets, but at least one source I found recommends (1) 695mg tablet to treat 20 gallons of water for chloramine. I'm wondering if maybe you're getting a much higher concentration of sulfites in your extract beers.

I'd still be somewhat surprised if that's the whole story, but I do know many are more sensitive to changes in sulfites than other ions...

 

[mrduna01]

I noticed the exact same thing with extract brews compared to AG. Though, to be fair, I only did two extract batches before moving up to AG.

I think what we may be tasting is "extract twang."

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/extract-twang-what-54434/

Thanks for the thread. I looked through a couple pages and the twang they talk about is described as a distraction or just a different kind of flavor... not a full blown off flavor assault. What I'm getting out of my beer is absolutely horrid and ends up down the drain. A slight twang I could deal with but I think my problem is a bit beyond that.

 

[mrduna01]

Are you using roughly the same number of tablets/gallon in your all-grain beers?

I don't use Camden tablets, but at least one source I found recommends (1) 695mg tablet to treat 20 gallons of water for chloramine. I'm wondering if maybe you're getting a much higher concentration of sulfites in your extract beers.

I'd still be somewhat surprised if that's the whole story, but I do know many are more sensitive to changes in sulfites than other ions...

I actually had the same off flavor with extract prior to using the Camden tablets but yes I use a tablet per brew roughly with all grain as well based on Palmers opinion that a whole tablet per brew will not harm anything. Only difference is with all grain the campden tablet is all added prior to the boil with all grain. With extract I mix the top off water with the campden after the boil has been cooled and is in the fermenter.

 

[mrduna01]

At this point I'd be willing to find a certified judge to let me mail them a bottle to try and decipher what the off flavor is and what can be done... I'm tired of wasting money on these beers but I actually enjoy the extract process from time to time when I have less time to Brew or am just too lazy for all grain. Lol I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[mrduna01]

Here is a link of my cities water report just in case anything stands out to anyone but given my good all grain beers I know that's a long shot. I'm just leaning toward water since it seems to affect dark extract beers more than lighter ones. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...QQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGxXp6V5FnYm2HhsuPsiGJfK0hEqQ

 

[Yooper]

Concentrated boils.. I usually use half a tablet in the steeping and boil water, half in the top off water but I sometimes forget to add to the top off water.

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I'm a certified BJCP judge, but I don't think that I need to sample the beer. I think that this is your problem.

Boiling extract in a concentrated solution will increase the maillard reactions, similar to caramelization.

Next time, use 1 pound of extract per gallon of water in the boil, and then add the rest of the extract at flame out. You don't want to overboil the extract, and it's not needed.

If you're using chlorinated water, you absolutely have to treat the water with campden. Maybe draw all of your brewing water the night before, treat appropriately with campden, and then use that water for brewing and for the top off water. Use one tablet per 20 gallons of water- no need for more. Use a 1/2 tablet for 10 gallons.

 

[big_len]

This isn't really contributing to a solution for you - but I always found the same when doing extract recipes at the start. I was never pleased with the results from about 5-6 batches and when I did my first all-grain, with the same fermentation techniques, I was blown away by how good it was. Other palates (and my friends attached to them) agreed with this - infact they all thought I was a bit strange to continue to pursue the hobby based on the extract results! Never got to the bottom of it, I have never gone back to extract, but if it makes you feel any better I had the same experience!

 

[mrduna01]

I'm a certified BJCP judge, but I don't think that I need to sample the beer. I think that this is your problem.

Boiling extract in a concentrated solution will increase the maillard reactions, similar to caramelization.

Next time, use 1 pound of extract per gallon of water in the boil, and then add the rest of the extract at flame out. You don't want to overboil the extract, and it's not needed.

If you're using chlorinated water, you absolutely have to treat the water with campden. Maybe draw all of your brewing water the night before, treat appropriately with campden, and then use that water for brewing and for the top off water. Use one tablet per 20 gallons of water- no need for more. Use a 1/2 tablet for 10 gallons.

Ok so I should ignore northern brewers extract addition times? If so, and I'm using a combination of dry and liquid extract do I add a lb per gallon of the liquid or dry?Do you really think over boiling extract could lead to such horrid flavor or is it a combination of not properly treating the water and the extract? I think I will try your suggestions on a 1 gallon batch so I'm not wasting too much money drilling down the issue. Also might use distilled water on a separate 1 gallon batch to finally rule out or confirm what's going on with the water. And I do have several gallons of bad beer if you want some lol

 

[mrduna01]

This isn't really contributing to a solution for you - but I always found the same when doing extract recipes at the start. I was never pleased with the results from about 5-6 batches and when I did my first all-grain, with the same fermentation techniques, I was blown away by how good it was. Other palates (and my friends attached to them) agreed with this - infact they all thought I was a bit strange to continue to pursue the hobby based on the extract results! Never got to the bottom of it, I have never gone back to extract, but if it makes you feel any better I had the same experience!

Hey I appreciate the input but by being un pleased do you mean you couldn't even drink it?

 

[CUrchin]

As per usual, I'm quite certain Yooper nailed it. In addition to doing late extract addition, I'd also suggest that you kill the heat and stir the living daylights out of the wort when adding your extract. You might have some scorching going on.

 

[mrduna01]

Just some more info... the slobber recipe instructed to add 6 lbs of liquid extract and 1 lb of dry at start of boil. I did remove from heat and stir a lot when adding. Im just surprised that this is the issue because the extract kit has received pretty good reviews. :/

So many beers... so little time.

 

[max384]

Thanks for the thread. I looked through a couple pages and the twang they talk about is described as a distraction or just a different kind of flavor... not a full blown off flavor assault. What I'm getting out of my beer is absolutely horrid and ends up down the drain. A slight twang I could deal with but I think my problem is a bit beyond that.

I missed where you said it was bad enough to dump down the drain... I guess this isn't your problem than.

 

[big_len]

Hey I appreciate the input but by being un pleased do you mean you couldn't even drink it?

In hindsight, and in comparison to what I have made since changing to all grain, they were probably not drinkable.

I'm not saying there is anything at all wrong with extract, of course, it just didn't give results for whatever I was doing and I had transitioned to all-grain before I got to the bottom of it.

 

[IvanBrew]

@mrduna1, I suspect pH might also be contributing to what you're picking up.

The water report shows pH of 8.2. It's also a little questionable, as the ions don't balance well, but... Using your water report, Brun Water predicts a room temp mash pH of 5.7, which is very reasonable. In other words, by mashing, you're correcting pH.

Steeping grains at 8.2, though, would be way out of range. High pH during boil will also affect maillard reactions. Check out the pic from braukaiser:

I still find it hard to believe that any/all of this yields "undrinkable," though, unless you have an easily offended pallet, lol. Your water is, as you said, pretty damned good to start with, so lots are brewing with worse.

 

[Yooper]

Ok so I should ignore northern brewers extract addition times? If so, and I'm using a combination of dry and liquid extract do I add a lb per gallon of the liquid or dry?Do you really think over boiling extract could lead to such horrid flavor or is it a combination of not properly treating the water and the extract? I think I will try your suggestions on a 1 gallon batch so I'm not wasting too much money drilling down the issue. Also might use distilled water on a separate 1 gallon batch to finally rule out or confirm what's going on with the water. And I do have several gallons of bad beer if you want some lol

Yes, I think you should only use 1 pound of extract (roughly, not an exact science here) per gallon of liquid in the boil.

Also, don't overdose the campden so much. You're using about 5 times a normal amount, if you're adding more than 1/4 tablet for 5 gallons of water total.

I'd get the water out the night before, and stir the campden in well and let it sit so that it's ready the next day. Then you're not trying to add campden in micro-amounts to top off water and stirring it to off-gas before adding it to your wort.

I think fixing both of those issues will fix your problem.

 

[mrduna01]

@mrduna1, I suspect pH might also be contributing to what you're picking up.

The water report shows pH of 8.2. It's also a little questionable, as the ions don't balance well, but... Using your water report, Brun Water predicts a room temp mash pH of 5.7, which is very reasonable. In other words, by mashing, you're correcting pH.

Steeping grains at 8.2, though, would be way out of range. High pH during boil will also affect maillard reactions. Check out the pic from braukaiser:

I still find it hard to believe that any/all of this yields "undrinkable," though, unless you have an easily offended pallet, lol. Your water is, as you said, pretty damned good to start with, so lots are brewing with worse.

You say "room temp" mash, what would that equate to at 150 out of curiosity? I don't have ph strips and never tested.

So many beers... so little time.

 

[IvanBrew]

You say "room temp" mash, what would that equate to at 150 out of curiosity? I don't have ph strips and never tested.

So many beers... so little time.

"Room temp" is used to commonize reporting, i.e., unless a source states otherwise, mash pH is reported at room temp. When you see the commonly published 5.2 to 5.7 band for mash pH, that's at room temperature.

The shift in pH from room temp to mash temp is very roughly .3 (so 5.7 at room temp would be 5.4 at 150ish).

 

[IvanBrew]

By the way, there are WAY too many assumptions in all of the pH numbers I'm throwing out to do anything other than provide vague/general insight. I'm in NO WAY intending to be scientific here.

The water report ions don't balance
I used a basic pale ale recipe file of mine for the assumed mash profile
I have no idea what effect your extract will have on pH
etc., etc.

Read my comments for insight, but don't get lost in the decimal points.

 

[mrduna01]

"Room temp" is used to commonize reporting, i.e., unless a source states otherwise, mash pH is reported at room temp. When you see the commonly published 5.2 to 5.7 band for mash pH, that's at room temperature.

The shift in pH from room temp to mash temp is very roughly .3 (so 5.7 at room temp would be 5.4 at 150ish).

Ok sounds like I'm good there on that front for all grain. I don't know a lot but I wouldn't think the ph of boil water would render a beer undrinkable as you hinted to earlier. Going to have to experiment with distilled I suppose. Hopefully Yooper will hit me back about the recipe additions as far as extracts go.

 

[mrduna01]

By the way, there are WAY too many assumptions in all of the pH numbers I'm throwing out to do anything other than provide vague/general insight. I'm in NO WAY intending to be scientific here.

The water report ions don't balance
I used a basic pale ale recipe file of mine for the assumed mash profile
I have no idea what effect your extract will have on pH
etc., etc.

Read my comments for insight, but don't get lost in the decimal points.

Given everyone's unique situations and setups there is few times when you can give any more specific advice than you already have... I appreciate any insights I can get.

 

[Falcon3]

I was having the same sort of issue with my brews: terrible off-taste with extract, and a noticable off-taste (same taste, less of it) of the same sort with some (most) of my AG brews. What ended up solving it for me was...................YEAST. I never pitched enough, didn't do starters, and relied heavily upon dry yeast(which my palate doesn't like as much) with which I was usually too lazy to rehydrate (losing up to half of the yeast population from the start).

Get a good strain of liquid yeast- and do a big starter- and aerate well- and see where it gets you. Extract is a bit more tough to digest for the yeast, and if they're stressed to begin with- the off tastes and leftover stuff from the extract won't get absorbed as soon- which is why some of these brews might be taking months to get from tasting terrible to tasting good-

 

[mrduna01]

I was having the same sort of issue with my brews: terrible off-taste with extract, and a noticable off-taste (same taste, less of it) of the same sort with some (most) of my AG brews. What ended up solving it for me was...................YEAST. I never pitched enough, didn't do starters, and relied heavily upon dry yeast(which my palate doesn't like as much) with which I was usually too lazy to rehydrate (losing up to half of the yeast population from the start).

Get a good strain of liquid yeast- and do a big starter- and aerate well- and see where it gets you. Extract is a bit more tough to digest for the yeast, and if they're stressed to begin with- the off tastes and leftover stuff from the extract won't get absorbed as soon- which is why some of these brews might be taking months to get from tasting terrible to tasting good-

I appreciate the input. With the last dumped batch I used wyeast and did a 1 litre starter for what was I think around a 1.050 beer and aerated well so I think I've ruled that out as well :/
Also these beers never get to the drinkable stage.