All Grain vs Extract flavor question

[Toy4Rick]

Hey gang,

I have been doing extract brewing for about 5 months now (6 batches) and the one thing that I would like to change if I could is the caramelized taste, it seems pretty heavy even when I do a late addition. My last Hef I added 1/3 LME for the 60 min boil and the remaining 2/3's at flame out and it still tastes heavy malt/caramelized.

My question is this, is this indicative to extract brewing only or is All Grain subject to the same??

Thanks in advance
Toy4Rick

 

[Malticulous]

Well there is no question that all grain, done right, is better.

 

[jmp781]

I haven't brewed all grain yet, just finished my 5th extract a few weeks ago but add my LME differently than you, it may make a difference. I add 2/3 and boil for 60 minutes and add the last 1/3 at the 15 minutes to finish mark. Are you hitting your OG?

 

[aseg]

Could be the LME you are using as well. I've found that LME isnt great for anything lighter than a darkish pale.

 

[Toy4Rick]

The LME in bulk from my LHBS is either Pale or Light. The Hef calls for Pale. I did a late addition that was even more aggressive than JMP781 by only starting off with 1/3 for the 60 min boil and adding the last 2/3's at flame out.

My neighbors Belgium Abby Ale had a similar caramelized flavor as well.

Question, would DME help over LME? My LHBS says no, says it's the same.

Thanks again
Toy4Rick

 

[Malticulous]

I think LME is better when fresh. It's less processed. DME is just more stable.

 

[BelgianKing]

I just switched to AG. I started with LME for my first batch and it had a tang to it. So I then went to DME and found that it was not as "tangy". The only difference between DME and LME is the amount of water and people say you can achieve less color with DME. I dont know how true that is though. Since going to AG I dont taste that "tang" anymore. Dont know if that is what your describing in flavor.

 

[mburnett274]

I would look at your fermentation. Make sure everything is going perfect in that department.
Extract beer can turn out very good if fermented properly
Just my 2 cents

 

[frozenfish]

I would look at your fermentation. Make sure everything is going perfect in that department.
Extract beer can turn out very good if fermented properly
Just my 2 cents

274, I agree with you. I was an extract brewer for 15 years before I started all grain. I've won brewing competition with extract. IMHO I believe that a lot of people jump to all grain too soon. My advice is to get the sanitation, boil and fermentation process down to a science before you add the extra element of mashing and sparging.

 

[AR-Josh]

274, I agree with you. I was an extract brewer for 15 years before I started all grain. I've won brewing competition with extract. IMHO I believe that a lot of people jump to all grain too soon. My advice is to get the sanitation, boil and fermentation process down to a science before you add the extra element of mashing and sparging.

I think in the book Designing Great Beers he talks about having studied a few home brew competitions and most of the winners were extract or partial mash brewers.

I am starting to think that the "twang" people talk about is due to their fermentation temps and not the extract. That is assuming the extract is NOT old.

I made a SNPA clone that, in a blind taste test with the real SNPA, could not be picked out. Everyone said that there were very minor differences in taste but even I got it wrong when I had to guess which one was which. That SNPA clone was extract with steeping grains.

 

[GaryJohn]

If you are complaining of caramelized taste, I would suggest two things:

1. don't add as much caramel (crystal) malt...if you are adding any. It doesn't sound like you are though.

2. Make sure not to burn the extract in the bottom of the pot. Take the pot off the heat before adding the extract, and stir it all in so it is dissolved before heating it up again for the boil. Burning the bottom of the pot "caramelizes" the sugar, and will give you that flavor.

I also say that extract brews can be as good as all grain. I've won several ribbons with partial mash brews. The main advantages of all grain vs extract is more control over the recipe and its cheaper.

 

[sweaterman]

You spoke about your LHBS only having two types of extract. Could he be ordering these in large amounts and then they are getting old? If they aren't fresh they could be giving you off flavors.

 

[BelgianKing]

I am starting to think that the "twang" people talk about is due to their fermentation temps and not the extract. That is assuming the extract is NOT old.

I always keep my fermentation temps around 64*F for all my ales and for my lagering I keep it at 48*F. I dont know how old the stuff is at my LHBS but they are the only one in the area. So they do a good business. I know they get deliveries on Tuesday and restock the shelves on Wednesday. I just noticed the difference when I switched, but I was looking for it. Not one person has ever told me that my extract beers had a "twang". Its just me that judges my beer to that extent.

 

[Toy4Rick]

Thanks everyone for the input.

It's not a twang thang, it's just a heavy caramel malt flavor. I am very careful to completely dissolve before returning to a boil and my sanitation/fermentation is pretty clean and straight forward. It's not an off flavor as my neighbors has the same taste.

I'll try the hef again with DME and see how that goes

Toy4Rick

 

[philjohnwilliams]

I am curious to know what size boils are you doing? I brew extract as well and I found that when i went to a larger boil ( I start with about 4 gal) my beers got a lot better. I am now planning to go to full boils.

 

[Toy4Rick]

My pot size limits me to 2.75 gals at the moment. I would love to move up to full boil as soon as possible. My neighbor is working with the same size limitations as well

Toy4Rick

 

[Malticulous]

With a smaller pot you can do full boils on smaller batches. You can even do all grain BIAB. I've made batches fermented in a Mr. Beer. It's neat to get another 2.5 gallons going in my fermentation fridge. If you have the extra time you can save a little money and make some great beer. I took some pics here. I've also made a wonderful douplebock with it.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

I made a SNPA clone that, in a blind taste test with the real SNPA, could not be picked out. Everyone said that there were very minor differences in taste but even I got it wrong when I had to guess which one was which. That SNPA clone was extract with steeping grains.

Was that the "High Sierra Pale Ale" clone recipe online? If so, I made the same recipe, and it was dead on to the point that my wife's friends, who went to school at CSU-Chico, couldn't tell the difference.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Put it this way:

Extract is dehydrated mash done for you, be it liquid or dry. It's concentrated sugar.

The point of boiling it is to sanitize it, so think in those terms.

Extract does not need to be boiled for a full boil, only enough to sanitize it. Add all the extract 10-15 minutes from the end of the boil. Get the kettle off the heat and stir it in until it's dissolved. Then put back on heat, bring to a boil, and continue the countdown to flameout.

 

[GaryJohn]

If you are watching the "scorching" of the extract on the bottom of the pot, and you are still getting caramelized flavors, I only can think of one other thing. You might want to make sure your fermentation is extra healthy...meaning pitching enough yeast, keeping it at the right temp, and maybe even rousing it (gently swirling the fermentation container) from time to time to make sure fermentation is as complete as it can get.

Sometimes if the yeast is not in its optimal conditions or stressed, they won't ferment the wort as thoroughly as desired...this can lead to subtle residual sweetness in some cases.

 

[AR-Josh]

Was that the "High Sierra Pale Ale" clone recipe online? If so, I made the same recipe, and it was dead on to the point that my wife's friends, who went to school at CSU-Chico, couldn't tell the difference.

Actually no. It was an Annapolis Home Brew kit.

 

[AR-Josh]

Put it this way:

Extract is dehydrated mash done for you, be it liquid or dry. It's concentrated sugar.

The point of boiling it is to sanitize it, so think in those terms.

Extract does not need to be boiled for a full boil, only enough to sanitize it. Add all the extract 10-15 minutes from the end of the boil. Get the kettle off the heat and stir it in until it's dissolved. Then put back on heat, bring to a boil, and continue the countdown to flameout.

Don't you need some extract to get any hop utilisation? So what you're saying is to basically boil the hops in the water for that entire time then add all the extract in the last 5-10 minutes or so?

I add no more than 2 lbs of extract per gallon of water boiled. I then add the rest of the extract at the 5 minute mark.

 

[Weizenwerks]

Don't you need some extract to get any hop utilisation?

No. In fact, a lower gravity wort will allow for more hop utilization. Sugar compounds actually reduce hop utilization, not increase it. You will get better hop utilization out of boiling in straight water than in wort.

So what you're saying is to basically boil the hops in the water for that entire time then add all the extract in the last 5-10 minutes or so?

Yes, that is correct. Usually there is a hop addition at 10-15 minutes to flameout and that's when I add the aroma hops and all the extract.

 

[Zixxer10R]

My pot size limits me to 2.75 gals at the moment. I would love to move up to full boil as soon as possible. My neighbor is working with the same size limitations as well

Toy4Rick

If it's any consolation, i've found a really great website that has very reasonably priced 10 gallon stock pots which would allow you to do full boils.

http://www.missionrs.com/MRS50527.html

 

[KCBrew]

I haven't seen this mentioned yet, and I would think about it because I had the issue: Are you on a gas stove and potentially boiling too hot? I noticed on my set up I could get a crazy rolling boil and I had people comment on a toasty carmelized flavor. The next batch I did (american wheat) I turned the fire down a few notches and got a great beer.

Think about how much evaporation you are getting and try to compute that out to a full boil. I think you shouldn't be evaporating off more than 1.5-2.5 quarts in the hour.

 

[Zixxer10R]

Typically it's around 1 GALLON/hour.

 

[KCBrew]

Right, but he's doing 2.5 gallon boils, hence he should be boiling off 1.5-2.5 quarts in the hour he boils (assuming 60 min boil...). If he's boiling off 1 gallon out for 2-3 galln boils, that's where the carmelization is happening.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

No. In fact, a lower gravity wort will allow for more hop utilization. Sugar compounds actually reduce hop utilization, not increase it. You will get better hop utilization out of boiling in straight water than in wort.

Yes, that is correct. Usually there is a hop addition at 10-15 minutes to flameout and that's when I add the aroma hops and all the extract.

You sir are either a very confused man or a genius who will change the way extract is brewed for years to come.

 

[Zixxer10R]

You sir are either a very confused man or a genius who will change the way extract is brewed for years to come.

I agree. WTH even boil the water for 60 minutes if you're just gonna add the extract at the end?

Silly.

 

[Sardoman]

In fact, a lower gravity wort will allow for more hop utilization. Sugar compounds actually reduce hop utilization, not increase it. You will get better hop utilization out of boiling in straight water than in wort.

Partially true. You were right that high grav. worts allow lower hop utilization due to the high sugar content, but boiling hops in water will also lead to low hop utilization. This is because the alpha acids are not highly soluble in water. They require the proteins and other components from the mash/extract in order to dissolve well into the wort.

KCBrew nailed it. I had exactly the same problem as the OP when I started. The fact that OP and neighbor are having the same problem with the same size small kettle is telling. Excess melanoidins and caramelization come with the territory when you boil such highly concentrated wort. Boiling too aggressively will only compound that problem.

Solutions: Make smaller batches or get a bigger kettle. In the meantime, stick to session beers and don't boil too aggressively.

 

[Toy4Rick]

Thanks everyone for the input

I do keep the boil down to being very gentle and only lose about 1/3 gal in the hour boil. I have watched many a youtube where the boil is huge, mine is no where near that aggressive. My next batch I will split the boil in half essentially doing a full boil and see how that goes.

One of the other suggestion was to only boil long enough to sanitize, the question I have then is why do most extract recipes call for a 60 min boil? As it stands, I cut way back on the hops, well cuz I'm not a hop head :cross: This would mean basically using almost no hops. Seems like something else is the issue.

Thanks, Toy4Rick

 

[Malticulous]

If you can get all the IBUs in 20-10 minutes of boil there's no need to boil extract any longer. In fact you don't even have to boil extract at all if it's pre-hopped (and sanitary.) An all grain mash does have to be boiled for sixty minutes or more. Extract makers already did that for you.

 

[Weizenwerks]

You sir are either a very confused man or a genius who will change the way extract is brewed for years to come.

I've always been a proponent of late extract additions and not boiling extract for the full boil.

I agree. WTH even boil the water for 60 minutes if you're just gonna add the extract at the end?

Silly.

You boil the water to isomerize AAs, and many other things that have nothing to do with wort. You don't have to boil for 60 minutes if you don't want to, but you'll have to add more hops to get the IBUs for your recipe. You also don't have to mash for 60 minutes.

Partially true. You were right that high grav. worts allow lower hop utilization due to the high sugar content, but boiling hops in water will also lead to low hop utilization.

Not in tap water. In distilled water, yes.

This is because the alpha acids are not highly soluble in water. They require the proteins and other components from the mash/extract in order to dissolve well into the wort.

The AAs will not boil off. With the late extract addition, they will dissolve into the wort at that time, but not before. The fact that they dissolve matters, not what time it occurs.

 

[Weizenwerks]

An all gran mash does have to be boiled for sixty minutes or more.

False. Conversion happens in the first 7-10 minutes of the mash. You're not going to extract much more sugar beyond that. A 60 minute mash means you can do other things for a while before you sparge (that's the real reason for long mashes, historically). You aren't getting anything out of a 60 minute mash that you can't do in a 20 minute mash.

 

[Malticulous]

I did not say 'mash.' When I did say it I meant unboiled (completely unprocessed) homebrewed extract.

A hour mash is a good idea. It's proved to work most every time. A 60 minute boil may not be long enough depending on the grain bill.

A high DP mash will convert in minutes at 160F. A low DP mash could take hours at 149. The fermetability will be totally different. Hitting your FG is more important than hitting your OG. You taste the effects of the OG but the FG is in fact what you taste.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I did not say 'mash.' When I did say it

So then you did say it, you just misspoke.

A hour mash is a good idea. It's proved to work most every time. A 60 minute boil may not be long enough depending on the grain bill.

A 60 minute mash is the standard due to history, not to brewing science. A 60 minute mash when only a 20 minute mash achieves the same results, that 40 minutes is a waste of time. Homebrewers do 60 minute mashes because that's what they've been told for decades. For me, that 40 minutes I save on mashing is 2/3 the time of my boil. I love brewing but I've got other stuff to do. If others want to continue doing 60 minute mashes, that's fine. It's not necessary, but it's fine. Hell, mash for 120 minutes if you want.

A high DP mash will convert in minutes at 160F. A low DP mash could take hours at 149. The fermetability will be totally different.

No, it won't take hours at 149 degrees. Yes the fermentability will be different as well as the body. Be that as it may, it still doesn't require a 60 minute mash.

 

[Malticulous]

I did not misspeak, you misunderstood. Mash time has drastic effects on the beer and is important.

Traditionally mash could take most of the day. English style would be three or four mashes a few hours each. German style was a triple decoction. Today's better modified malts may not require such intense mashing but there are still benefits to the old ways.

 

[Weizenwerks]

I did not misspeak, you misunderstood.

You fail at comprehension.

You typed:

"I did not say 'mash'. When I did say it..."

"it" in the second sentence is referring to the word "mash" in the first sentence. Replace "it" with "mash" and it's exactly what you typed.

Traditionally mash could take most of the day. English style would be three or four mashes a few hours each. German style was a triple decoction. Today's better modified malts may not require such intense mashing but there are still benefits to the old ways.

Technique has changed due to technology. Why did a mash take all day? Think of how much wood had to burn in order for several barrels if not dozens of barrels worth of beer had to be mashed and boiled.

 

[tasq]

get a room you two.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Stop bickering over points that do not answer the OP's question.