All Grain v Extract (my experience)

[joshesmusica]

No, you were the guy who came out and said the OP was too big a n00b to realize that his beer sucks because he didn't rehydrate his dry yeast.

Yes, I, and others, said that just because someone is making good beer doesn't mean they are making the best beer. Nowhere did I ever say that his beer sucks. But you lost this round of the debate, so now you're lashing out. Very grown up of you. Everyone wants to talk about how the yeast manufacturers say that people can just pitch dry, but those same manufacturers also say that to get the optimum use out of the yeast, they should be rehydrated first.

 

[RM-MN]

Yes, I, and others, said that just because someone is making good beer doesn't mean they are making the best beer. Nowhere did I ever say that his beer sucks. But you lost this round of the debate, so now you're lashing out. Very grown up of you. Everyone wants to talk about how the yeast manufacturers say that people can just pitch dry, but those same manufacturers also say that to get the optimum use out of the yeast, they should be rehydrated first.

There may well be an "optimum" amount of yeast to ferment out the best beer but there is considerable lattitude off the optimum that will be indistinguishable from the optimum. Much also depends on how much yeast growth from when you pitch until the yeast begin creating much volume of alcohol. How well do you aerate? How do you control the amount of oxygen that is dissolved in the beer. What is the mineral makeup of your water that affects the reproduction of the yeast as well as the percieved flavors. Too many of us blindly follow the instructions to make a starter without recognizing why or what it might do for our beer.

The experiment that Brulosopher did (which I often reference) is interesting, not just because he could always pick out which beer was under or over pitched but that his results were not horrible beer since his overpitch was about 5 times recommended while the under pitch was one seventh of the recommended, yet each produced quite drinkable beer. Not the best beer ever, but reasonably good beer.

3) Again, he ignored fermentis' instructions which are, "Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes. Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel."

Do you always follow all the directions? Stir gently for 30 minutes????

I make small batches, 2 1/2 gallons at a time. That means I only use 1/2 package of the dry yeast which then needs to be rehydrated in about 1/4 cup of water. I can't even get a spoon in my measure cup to decently stir that small amount and I certainly don't feel much like standing over it for half an hour trying to stir. Does that mean that my beer is bad?

 

[user 163849]

The few times that I have used dry yeast I rehydrated according instructions which I found on HBT. But I usually make a starter using liquid yeast mainly because that is what is included in the extract kits which I prefer to brew.

But I do keep a pouch of S04 around for use in case it is needed. I seem to be having much difficulty finding the part of the instructions that cover rehydration. The only pitching instruction that Fermintis provides to everyone who purchases a pouch of S04 is simply; "Sprinkle into wort." The last time that I did rehydrate S04 I actually wondered if I was doing the right thing as the manufacturer did not recommend it on the package (turned out fine, it took off quickly and blew the lid off my bucket the first night).

I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong here simply supporting those who have been called out for stating the manufacturer recommends pitching dry. The other side of the package has presumably the same information, only in a different language.

 

[gbx]

Yes, I, and others, said that just because someone is making good beer doesn't mean they are making the best beer. Nowhere did I ever say that his beer sucks. But you lost this round of the debate, so now you're lashing out. Very grown up of you. Everyone wants to talk about how the yeast manufacturers say that people can just pitch dry, but those same manufacturers also say that to get the optimum use out of the yeast, they should be rehydrated first.

no, you didn't. you said this:

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions. Almost nobody could as a new brewer. So although you don't detect any major problems with dry pitching the yeast, it's not best practice, and won't likely lend you the best beer possible in the end. Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

but you said "no disrespect" so its cool, my mistake.

The few times that I have used dry yeast I rehydrated according instructions which I found on HBT. But I usually make a starter using liquid yeast mainly because that is what is included in the extract kits which I prefer to brew.

But I do keep a pouch of S04 around for use in case it is needed. I seem to be having much difficulty finding the part of the instructions that cover rehydration. The only pitching instruction that Fermintis provides to everyone who purchases a pouch of S04 is simply; "Sprinkle into wort." The last time that I did rehydrate S04 I actually wondered if I was doing the right thing as the manufacturer did not recommend it on the package (turned out fine, it took off quickly and blew the lid off my bucket the first night).

I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong here simply supporting those who have been called out for stating the manufacturer recommends pitching dry. The other side of the package has presumably the same information, only in a different language.

The instructions are buried deep on their website. If they thought they were important, they probably would have put them on the pack like danstar does? The stupid thing is I ALMOST ALWAYS REHYDRATE MY DRY YEAST. I've done more than 100 batches and can handle it. I've also done enough to realize that sprinkling a single pack of US-05 on a 1.050/5 gal batch isn't the end of the world (especially if its a hop bomb). If we were discussing lager fermentation with 34/70 then I would definitely be on the hardline "you must rehydrate" side and you probably should consider a starter or a second pack.

So I'm not saying anyone is wrong either. oh yes, I am. I'm saying the guy who says "YOU MUST REHYDRATE" is wrong. You don't have to. You probably should (if you can without messing it up). but you don't have to. Chris White might say that you need to but he doesn't sell dry yeast. Fermentis sells dry yeast and they don't say that.

 

[eman_resu]

I don't use dry yeast often, but I can state as 100% fact that the way I do it is the best and only way for me and probably everyone else. At least until I find a reliable random internet source that convinces me otherwise. Then I'll change to that, and everyone else should too.

I haven't entered any competitions, but my wife thinks I sound good when I sing in the shower

 

[joshesmusica]

No, you were the guy who came out and said the OP was too big a n00b to realize that his beer sucks because he didn't rehydrate his dry yeast.

no, you didn't. you said this:



but you said "no disrespect" so its cool, my mistake.

Saying you've "never" had a problem after only 6-7 brews is quite an extreme thing to say. I mean no disrespect, but I doubt you're brewing beers that would score well in competitions. Almost nobody could as a new brewer. So although you don't detect any major problems with dry pitching the yeast, it's not best practice, and won't likely lend you the best beer possible in the end. Honestly, the work to rehydrate is so simple, I don't know why anybody would skip it only to lose up to 50% of their yeast.

Glad to know then that we agree that I never said his beer sucks. Nobody did, in fact. You clearly have taken personal offense, and are now exaggerating statements made.

So I'm not saying anyone is wrong either. oh yes, I am. I'm saying the guy who says "YOU MUST REHYDRATE" is wrong. You don't have to. You probably should (if you can without messing it up). but you don't have to. Chris White might say that you need to but he doesn't sell dry yeast. Fermentis sells dry yeast and they don't say that.

Nobody is saying that "YOU MUST REHYDRATE!" Again you're exaggerating because we must have hurt your feelings. What we are saying is "You probably should" (if you want the consistently best outcome from your yeast).

To say that Christ White doesn't know about dry yeast just because he doesn't sell it is laughable at best, shows your complete ignorance at worst. The guy has a Ph.D. in yeast biochemistry. I think I'll trust him over some random homebrewer any day. In fact, the point that he doesn't sell them should also tell us something.

You have every right to disagree with me (and the others who advocate rehydrating will result in better outcomes consistently). But at least say that you do it because you're lazy, and your beer still tastes fine to you. Don't say that it's unnecessary to, don't come up with rather suspect tests to try to prove your point, and don't start exaggerating the comments that we have made.

I won't have you smearing my anonymous, online reputation like that. If random people from all over the world don't think I'm the coolest homebrewer because I play by the rules, then I won't know what to do with myself.

 

[kombat]

Do you always follow all the directions? Stir gently for 30 minutes???? I can't even get a spoon in my measure cup to decently stir that small amount and I certainly don't feel much like standing over it for half an hour trying to stir.

I just rehydrate it in a beaker (makes it easy to make sure I'm using the right quantity of water) and drop in a stir bar. I set it on my stir plate on a low speed for half an hour. So yes, I "always follow all the directions," including stirring gently for 30 minutes.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't necessarily agree with that, I've brewed over 100 batches and only had a "helper" for 3-4 of those, and those helpers didn't really know much about what was required. The vast majority of my brewing has been solitary.

I think it can go very smoothly if you know your process, and you've properly prepared. For example, I weigh out my grains and hops the day before brewing, sealing the hops in Foodsaver pouches and labeling them with their addition times. I also set up all of my equipment, so on brew day, everything is already where it needs to be (i.e., HLT is already on the burner, burner is connected to the propane tank, mash tun is in place below the HLT, mill is sitting over an empty bucket and has the drill already attached, etc.).

Such preparation allows me to complete a 5 gallon all-grain brew day in between 4-5 hours, including cleanup and hop stand.

all depends on your setup... there are even systems in the automated forum people have made to brew the beer automatically... to them its more about the engineering in the system as a hobby and the beer is a bonus... I bought a conical off a guy last month who has been homebrewing for years and doesnt even drink beer!

I brew with electric and its very easy to brew alone as I usually do.. it takes abourt 4-5 hrs including grinding the grain to cleanup for me.

 

[Knkbrand]

I already know ways I want to improve on from reading this forum, the biggest thing I want to do is get something to control my fermentation temps more accurately.

Temp control has made the biggest difference in the taste of my beer. I do not have a room in the house that remains a constant temp. I bought a freezer and temp controler, and I have been very pleased with the results.

 

[augiedoggy]

The few times that I have used dry yeast I rehydrated according instructions which I found on HBT. But I usually make a starter using liquid yeast mainly because that is what is included in the extract kits which I prefer to brew.

But I do keep a pouch of S04 around for use in case it is needed. I seem to be having much difficulty finding the part of the instructions that cover rehydration. The only pitching instruction that Fermintis provides to everyone who purchases a pouch of S04 is simply; "Sprinkle into wort." The last time that I did rehydrate S04 I actually wondered if I was doing the right thing as the manufacturer did not recommend it on the package (turned out fine, it took off quickly and blew the lid off my bucket the first night).

I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong here simply supporting those who have been called out for stating the manufacturer recommends pitching dry. The other side of the package has presumably the same information, only in a different language.

I have done it both ways many times and it takes off quicker if you rehydrate about 45-30 minutes before pitching.. from what I have read the yeast have a better chance with this head start vs rehydratinging the wort.

 

[ericbw]

To say that Christ White doesn't know about dry yeast just because he doesn't sell it is laughable at best, shows your complete ignorance at worst. The guy has a Ph.D. in yeast biochemistry. I think I'll trust him over some random homebrewer any day. In fact, the point that he doesn't sell them should also tell us something.

He's obviously among the leading authorities on yeast, and there seems to be little question.

But as far as selling or not selling a product, there can be lots of reasons. Do you think that the other yeast companies don't have biochemists on staff? They just don't have someone that every knows.

So I don't think that not selling dry is a comment on the quality. Maybe it tells us he makes more money selling liquid.

 

[Wild1z]

Hey, pssst, OP, over here behind the couch... Welcome to All grain Bud! Want to step up your game next batch? Take the advice you get from others and try a few different things. It's fun to experiment and most of the tips are good to know and can help when issues arise. And issues will arise. Happy brewing!

Cheers!

 

[hunter_le five]

I just rehydrate it in a beaker (makes it easy to make sure I'm using the right quantity of water) and drop in a stir bar. I set it on my stir plate on a low speed for half an hour. So yes, I "always follow all the directions," including stirring gently for 30 minutes.

This. I do the exact same thing. Works great, and it's super easy.

 

[gbx]

Nobody is saying that "YOU MUST REHYDRATE!" Again you're exaggerating because we must have hurt your feelings. What we are saying is "You probably should" (if you want the consistently best outcome from your yeast).

I agree with that but would add that a new brewer probably should worry about other things first.

To say that Christ White doesn't know about dry yeast just because he doesn't sell it is laughable at best, shows your complete ignorance at worst. The guy has a Ph.D. in yeast biochemistry. I think I'll trust him over some random homebrewer any day. In fact, the point that he doesn't sell them should also tell us something.

I'm not distrusting him because he is scientist, i'm distrusting him because he is a salesman for a competing product. I admit that he probably is correct to a point as the dry yeast companies *suggest* rehydrating. The big advantage of dry yeast over his product is the ease of use. Anything he can say to diminish that advantage will benefit him.

You have every right to disagree with me (and the others who advocate rehydrating will result in better outcomes consistently). But at least say that you do it because you're lazy, and your beer still tastes fine to you. Don't say that it's unnecessary to, don't come up with rather suspect tests to try to prove your point, and don't start exaggerating the comments that we have made.

If there is one thing I don't do out of laziness its enter competitions - I hate bottling and when I have a beer I truly love I don't want to waste it on some ******* judges who might not appreciate it. I have only brewed 1 beer for specifically for competition, entered it in 1 competition and scoresheets ranged from 39 to 41 and got bronze (I rehydrated the dry fermentis w34/70). I was meaning to enter it in a few more in hopes of a gold but was too lazy to sort out the shipping.

I guess we will disagree on the quality of the "suspect tests". I find them more relevant to home brewing than an off the cuff comment on a Brew Strong podcast by a guy who sells a competing product (I haven't seen his peer reviewed paper on the subject, have you?). Its home brewing - the margins of error on even the tightest 5gal process is huge making it hard to isolate any specific parameter well enough to definitively prove anything but the BBR and Brulosophy experiments are good enough that anything having a dramatic effect should be detectable.

I won't have you smearing my anonymous, online reputation like that. If random people from all over the world don't think I'm the coolest homebrewer because I play by the rules, then I won't know what to do with myself.

We are nerds arguing about a tiny detail in home brewing, how could anyone not find that cool?

 

[joshesmusica]

I'm not distrusting him because he is scientist, i'm distrusting him because he is a salesman for a competing product. I admit that he probably is correct to a point as the dry yeast companies *suggest* rehydrating. The big advantage of dry yeast over his product is the ease of use. Anything he can say to diminish that advantage will benefit him.

Hahaha I've seen this argument thrown out a few times on these forums, and it really is quite laughable. First of all, he's suggesting to either properly rehydrate or buy more packs. That defeats the purpose of those supposed competition factor because he's telling people to just buy more. In fact in his book he praises dry yeast for its ease of use. He also advocates making a starter for his own products, even if some vials say you can directly pitch, which makes his product even less appealing because of the financial factor. It's not just a one off comment on some podcast, it's in his book, it's any time he's discussing dry yeast. Just because he has taken the time to do a peer reviewed experiment, doesn't make the fact that he's saying it any less meaningful. In the end, he's still yeast biochemist saying it should be done without any financial incentive to say so. The biochemists at the dry yeast labs have every reason to keep their mouths shut about it. It would make more sense that those labs keep that info "hidden deep inside their site" so that their product still has the cheap, and ease-of-use appeals.

 

[ericbw]

Since we're already so far afield any way (because whether it's all grain or extract, the yeast question is the same)...

What I don't understand is why the liquid yeast companies don't just pack more of their product in the container. It wouldn't double the price, because almost everything else associated with a larger product size remains the same. Why add the hassle of additional steps to make it usable.

That's like if you bought a jar of jelly and had to add your own pectin and boil it before you put it on your toast.

You would have more happy customers if they could open the vial and dump it in, rather than planning a few days ahead, having extra equipment, etc.

And why isn't there a wider selection of dry beer yeast?

 

[joshesmusica]

Since we're already so far afield any way (because whether it's all grain or extract, the yeast question is the same)...

What I don't understand is why the liquid yeast companies don't just pack more of their product in the container. It wouldn't double the price, because almost everything else associated with a larger product size remains the same. Why add the hassle of additional steps to make it usable.

That's like if you bought a jar of jelly and had to add your own pectin and boil it before you put it on your toast.

You would have more happy customers if they could open the vial and dump it in, rather than planning a few days ahead, having extra equipment, etc.

And why isn't there a wider selection of dry beer yeast?

That's a really good question. If it's really fresh and you're in the under 1.055 range, I believe you're actually safe to pitch one vial. Now white labs even has this pure pitch thing, but I'm not really sure what that one is all about.

As far as the dry yeasts, it's because not all strains can handle the process. Which I suppose might also indicate just how sturdy the strains that can handle it are.

 

[ncbrewer]

And why isn't there a wider selection of dry beer yeast?

There's a relatively new dry yeast brand - Mangrove Jack's. They have more of a selection. I haven't tried it yet but have read good things. http://mangrovejacks.com/collections/craft-series-yeasts

 

[joshesmusica]

There's a relatively new dry yeast brand - Mangrove Jack's. They have more of a selection. I haven't tried it yet but have read good things. http://mangrovejacks.com/collections/craft-series-yeasts

I've tried their british ale yeast and their belgian ale. The belgian ale is a beast, and a very high attenuator.

 

[gbx]

That's a really good question. If it's really fresh and you're in the under 1.055 range, I believe you're actually safe to pitch one vial. Now white labs even has this pure pitch thing, but I'm not really sure what that one is all about.

As far as the dry yeasts, it's because not all strains can handle the process. Which I suppose might also indicate just how sturdy the strains that can handle it are.

When I started brewing, wyeast sold tiny little smack packs. Then they discontinued them and started selling the larger size they sell today with the claim they contain enough cells and the price jumped from $6 to $8 at my LHBS. Lately I've been making a lot of split batches using different yeasts. I'd be annoyed if they made them even bigger and I had to pay more for way too many cells for 2.5 gal. I'm sure all the 1 gallon mini batch brewers wouldn't be happy either.