All Grain BIAB with Sparge thought

[JWS]

So in my getting everything ready to go to all grain I have been reading and asking many questions. I have read through a lot of post about BIAB and Sparge techniques. My problem is I lack the mash tun cooler setup. I know it doens't cost that much to build one and I'm thinking of doing it anyway in the future, but wondering what I could do now to get the same benefit of all grain. I have looked through on BIAB, but I have also read that it has less effeciancy (sp?) without a sparge unless adding more base grain to the recipe.

Then a thought came to me while watching some youtube BIAB and sparge techs. I have a 15 gallon (huge and wide) kettle for brewing. I also have a 7 gallon turkey pot that I have sitting on the side. My thought would be why not batch sparge through the 15 gallon kettle.

Here is my plan, please critique as you see fit.

I have the 15 gallon pot heated to strike temp+ to get everything ready. Once there, add the grains, stir.....blah blah everything you need to get doughballs out and get to the correct temp. Once there, pulling the pot off the turkey fryer and wrapping in something (i.e. blanket, sleeping bag, something to hold the heat in. I will have to test this before hand to make sure it holds the heat in). While I am mashing that way, take the sparge water and heat up in the 7 gallon pot. Once the mash is done, pulling the bag out of the mash tun/15 gallon kettle and draining as much of the wort as possible out of the bag into the kettle, taking the first couple of quarts off and pouring over, then draining into a bucket (i.e. bottling bucket with a measuring on the side.) Then adding the sparge water, stirring, letting sit for 10-15 minutes the taking the first couple quarts and pouring back over, can't remember the german word for it), then drain what I need to for a pre-boil amount.

Then doing everything like normal. So how does the operation sound. Please poke holes, I need to know how this wont work so that I don't mess up the batch.

My plan was to try my first all grain on an Oktoberfest Lager here in a couple of weeks, but I think I might just do another extract on it and try my first all grain on something that I wouldn't mind messing up after it. Don't really want to mess the Oktoberfest up, it's one of my favorites!!!

 

[erikpete18]

Your idea is similar to what I do, but I'm on a much smaller scale. I only partial mash on my stovetop, but I mash into a 3 gal pot, then just remove the bag to a 2 gal pot with some sparge water to get a sparge in. I'm betting its gonna be tough to get your grain into the 7 gal pot with your sparge water, so it sounds like a lot better idea to move the water to the 15 gal/mash tun in your case. Only problem I could see is I'm not sure how sturdy your bottling bucket is, you may want to check it with adding some 160 degree water to it to make sure its not gonna buckle under that pressure. I've seen some pics of some pretty mangled better bottles that had the wort added before it had cooled down properly, but that might have been boiling temps.

Oh yeah, I think the word you are looking for is vorlauf. Do you have a valve on your 15 gal kettle? If you did, you could essentially use the bag as a false bottom and not have to lift the bag out. Mash, vorlauf a gallon or so, then drain the rest of the wort out off the grains without lifting the bag out so you don't move the grains around much. Then you could close off your valve, add your sparge water and repeat. Of course, if you don't have a valve I'm not sure how much good vorlaufing over the bagged grains would do, but it certainly wouldn't hurt and you might just figure out a new way to do it!

 

[JWS]

Yes, it has a valve on it. Your second suggestion is what I had in mind. Use the basket and bag (I have frying basket with the pot as well) to use a false bottom. Drain out the first wort after VORLAUF (thanks) and then mixing the sparge water into the big pot. Basically the only thing I would use the 7 gallon pot for is to heat up the sparge water.

I will have to check that out with the bottling bucket. That is a good point I did not think of that. I know that my better bottle says to not put anything hotter than i think 150 in it, which I never do, but I think the bottle bucket is thicker on the sides.




I have another question thinking about it. This mostly goes to people that do the BIAB system. I have ready mostly that you get poorer effeciancy levels without adding another pound of your base grain. Is this the general consensus? Basically just add another pound of your base grain?

 

[daddyo]

I've read people getting north of 80% efficiency without a sparge on BIAB. A fine grain crush seems to make a much bigger difference than anything else you can do.

I have zero brewing talent, and I got north of 70% efficiency on my second BIAB with a regular grain crush, no sparge, and a useless bag. I did squeeze the heck out of the grains after I pulled it out, and it probably made a bit of difference.

You can do the sparge, but I wouldn't say it's a requirement by any means. I would try without it first, honestly.

 

[Mysticmead]

another point to look at here is.. if you get 90+% efficiency and the beer tastes like crap.. but at 75-80% the beer tastes great.. isn't it worth the extra grain to have great beer. basically I'm saying that high efficiency is fine but not at the expense of better tasting beer for a buck or 2 more. I get 80-84% efficiency with no sparge BIAB. just make sure the crush is good.. if in doubt, have the grain double crushed. Don't worry to much about the numbers (ok, extreme low efficiency is something to be concerned about), focus instead on making great beer. then worry about the numbers.

 

[JWS]

another point to look at here is.. if you get 90+% efficiency and the beer tastes like crap.. but at 75-80% the beer tastes great.. isn't it worth the extra grain to have great beer. basically I'm saying that high efficiency is fine but not at the expense of better tasting beer for a buck or 2 more. I get 80-84% efficiency with no sparge BIAB. just make sure the crush is good.. if in doubt, have the grain double crushed. Don't worry to much about the numbers (ok, extreme low efficiency is something to be concerned about), focus instead on making great beer. then worry about the numbers.

What would constitute a well crushed grain? I mostly have been getting kits online and doing the extract method. That being said, I don't truely know what a "well" crushed grain should look like (pics?)

Also I don't have a masher myself, I do have empty bottles and a rolling pin, but without knowing how fine to get it I wouldn't know how far to go.

Also, reading your post, basically your are saying that if I am going to be continuing with BIAB most of the recipes I just need to bump up the base grain?

For instance if the recipe calls for:
8 lbs. Pilsner Malt
4.5 lbs. Vienna
8 oz. Carapils Malt
8 oz. Caramel 40L

Would I just add another lbs of Pilsner Malt?

 

[thughes]

I recently moved from my converted cooler MLT/double batch sparge system to BIAB and have experienced an increase in efficiency. The MLT/batch sparge was getting me 70-75%; BIAB with a really fine crush and a 10 minute mashout (no sparging) consistently gets me >80%.

Don't let the lack of equipment keep you from going AG, BIAB is just as much a "real" method of brewing as any other.

 

[Mysticmead]

no, you don't have to bump up the recipe. but until you work out how your setup works best, you might want to add an extra pound of base grain. when you buy your grains online, ask for them to double crush the grain. if you buy from brewmasters warehouse.. their crush is a good example. with their crush I was getting an average of 74-77% (great prices and FAST shipping, not to mention Ed and the guys there are great to deal with).. when I started crushing my own I was able to go even finer than BMW's crush but it wasn't needed at all.. I just wanted to push my limits.

Here's a couple important points about no sparge BIAB.

Less time in the brew day. you mash for 60-90 minutes, you boil for 60-90 minutes, you cool and transfer then pitch yeast. then cleanup. you're looking at 2.5-3.5 hour long brew days. cleanup is a breeze since it's only one pot and you can just empty the grain bag into the trash (or use it in compost or to feed the deer (that's what I do)rise the bag off while cleaning the kettle out.

By not sparging, you cannot possibly extract tannins or off flavors by over sparging. You won't extract tannins by squeezing the bag either. Commercial breweries press their grains to get all the wort, go ahead and squeeze the bag. If you heat to mash out, stir while adding heat and don't go over 170 (I stop heating at 168).

If you're feeling adventurous and want to crush your own grain but not spend a fortune on a grain mill look at https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/using-pasta-maker-mill-grain-75784 mine works great and I have about $20 invested in it. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/using-pasta-maker-mill-grain-75784/index56.html#post2865323 has an example of my crush.. others go even finer

 

[thughes]

Ya, what Mystic said. I guess my increase in eff comes from the better mash temp control; with 8gallons of water and 12 lbs of grain in a 15 gallon keggle there is so much thermal mass all I have to do is throw a blanket over it and go take a nap for an hour and a half (have yet to lose more than 2 degrees over the course of 90 minutes).

After nap time I just spark up the burner and stir like mad until I hit 166 (guessing this helps my eff too) and let her sit for 10 minutes at 168-170 (temp always climbs a few degrees after burner shut-down) then pull the bag and get on with the boil. No heating sparge water, no need for multiple kettles, no vorlauf, no cleaning MLT, etc.

No method is better than any other method, I am just getting lazy in my old age and like the shortened brew day. The less time it takes to make my beer the more time I have to enjoy drinking it.

 

[captainkirk83]

Ya, what Mystic said. I guess my increase in eff comes from the better mash temp control; with 8gallons of water and 12 lbs of grain in a 15 gallon keggle there is so much thermal mass all I have to do is throw a blanket over it and go take a nap for an hour and a half (have yet to lose more than 2 degrees over the course of 90 minutes).

After nap time I just spark up the burner and stir like mad until I hit 166 (guessing this helps my eff too) and let her sit for 10 minutes at 168-170 (temp always climbs a few degrees after burner shut-down) then pull the bag and get on with the boil. No heating sparge water, no need for multiple kettles, no vorlauf, no cleaning MLT, etc.

No method is better than any other method, I am just getting lazy in my old age and like the shortened brew day. The less time it takes to make my beer the more time I have to enjoy drinking it.

BIAB is great. I've been doing extract for a while and did not feel like buying more equipment. Turns out I already had everything I needed for great AG brewing.

 

[Early8]

I have been getting really good, no great, efficiency with my BIAB routine. I am now thinking that I am seeing very high efficiency numbers because of the higher volume of water to grains, Like a tea bag if you will. I get a better dilution of the sugars on the husk, and therefor leave less behind. Couple that with a mini sparge at 170 and I am near 100%. But I might be dreaming as I am just a backyard brewing cowboy searching for an explanation for the OG I have been measuring.

 

[befus]

Short and sweet. I do almost exactly what you wrote in your original post. The crush (my opinion only) is everything in BIAB efficiency. I got my grains crushed from the supplier and then ran them through my Corona at home. I got something like 85% (too lazy to look it up) brewhouse efficiency on that batch. I did a porter Thursday and it was cold and I was a little hurried and I just used the crush as it came from the vendor; 72.5% efficiency. Now the latter is not bad at all, but is an illustration of how much you can improve using BIAB and a fine crush.