Aging or not aging, bottle or not...

[doublejef]

During my Journey of cidermaker padawan, I face a lot of questions and when I think I finally get answered, my experiments bring me more doubt.
I was already convinced that a cider needs time after fermentation to become good and have all the apple flavour and complexity. Yet, one some wild fermentation (brett) the taste of the sample I took just at the end of fermentation (or just before it @1002 or so) was amazing, complex, fruity, slightly sweet even with very low density. Once in bottle for 5-6 weeks, it became more watery and dry.
Do you think some cider should be drink very Young or, as I also heard, the complexity and roundness (is that a word?) will be back after months of aging?

About aging, is there any interest in letting the cider age into fermentation vessel instead of bottling directly after fermentation is done and let it age into bottle? Some king of process that won't complete into small volume of cider?

I also know that French cider is bottled at very high Density (as high as 1035 sometimes) into very high pression proof bottle (champegnoise) and that the high pression kill the yeast avoiding bottle bomb. Any idea of the limit of this process? Cause I'm pretty sure if you put a 1040 apple juice with fresh yeast, it will pop anyway.

Finally, because I'm not able to make a post without SO2 question, if SO2 only kills bacteria and not saccharo, why can't we use SO2 before bottling to prevent for oxidation for a sparkling cider. Saccharo and priming sugar into bottle will ferment anyway and makes sparkling, long shelf live cider isn't it?

 

[gregbathurst]

Your wild fermentation probably had some residual sugar when you first tasted it, it only needs a tiny amount to give a much more fruity taste. When you tasted it later it had fermented completely dry so it lost the fruity taste. MLF can also change the flavour and takes months for the flavour to settle, it is a big reason for ageing, you never know if you are going to get wild MLF especially if you don't use so2.
French make sweet cider by strictly managing the nitrogen, if there is no nitrogen the yeast can't work.They start with low nitrogen apples and use keeving to further remove N.
Yes you can add so2 and still bottle prime, it won't kill the yeast.

 

[GeneDaniels1963]

I don't age my ciders very long. I usually drink them after 1-2 months in the bottle. The most I have waited was 4 or 5 months, and it was fine. Maybe better, maybe not.

I know some people swear by long aging, but I just don't think its neccesary with cider.

 

[doublejef]

Your wild fermentation probably had some residual sugar when you first tasted it, it only needs a tiny amount to give a much more fruity taste. When you tasted it later it had fermented completely dry so it lost the fruity taste.

I also had this as a possibility in my mind, now I'm reading you, I'm pretty sure this is the Reason. It drives me crazy because it means that if I find a solution to keep those 0.002ish points of gravity away from the yeast, I can make a pretty good stuff. Of course I can use the big weapon, SO2 + K-sorbate and force carbo but it is a lot of work for this so f** little amount of sugar.
I Don't like SO2 but I even like less all the unefarmentable sugar like lactose, spartam and stuff like that.
Keeving is kind of art and looks mysterious to me.
My quest is far from is ending.

 

[doublejef]

I know some people swear by long aging, but I just don't think its neccesary with cider.

Crazy to see how there is no consensus on anything about cider.
I read so many time that cider needs to age to developp all his flavour. Now my experiences make me think it shouldn't Always be the case and I obvously find some people that experienced the same. It's quite disturbing when you come from the beer world where nearly everything has been done a million time and you can find hundreds of pages of literature on any subject.

 

[madscientist451]

There's no consensus on the "best way" because there are too many variables. The biggest variable is the variety of apples used, add to that the degree of ripeness, the amount of time the apples were aged after harvest, pressing methods, yeast selection, fermenting temperature and use of chemical additives.
Use the best raw materials you can get and when it tastes good, go ahead and drink it because there;s a chance it might not get better with age.

 

[gregbathurst]

I think fermentation temperature is the most important variable when it comes to ageing. If you have decent quality juice from well ripened fresh pressed apples, if you ferment around 20C it can be good to drink in a few months. A lot of cider in northern countries is fermented cool, it takes up to a year to be ready.

With residual sugar, it tastes good but can be a problem because spoilage yeast and bacteria can feed on it and your cider goes off. In the wine industry they are very careful, there has to be good protection from so2 if there is any residual sugar. It can be a difficult balance, I have lost wine and cider batches to residual sugar spoilage. Safer to go completely dry. the easiest solution for home cider makers is pasteurisation.