Advice on brewing system

[Ciderguy]

Advice on brewing system please! I have made a simple drawing of what I have in mind. I would like to know if anyone would recommend additional valves in different places to cut down on fluid loss or temperature variation in the lines. Just trying to get a good idea. I am going to run all of the ball valves to switches on a panel, with breakers, HLT will heat with an electric element and a temperature control unit, Mash tun will maintain temp with RIMS heating unit and temp control, and brew kettle will heat with propane and temp control. One question if have is if the pump will run constantly for that entire hour recirculating the mash, is it hard on the pump if I try to slow the flow with the ball valve a little or will i ever need to do so? And will the small amount of grain the comes through at the beginning damage the impeller? Right now I have a simple keggle set-up on my stand but it is all built for a 2 bbl system which I am picking up in July. I will most certainly have additional questions and appreciate any input! The lay out will change with the larger vessels, HLT bottom, Mush tun top (I will be fabricating some kind of a dump), and kettle on the side.

 

[carlisle_bob]

Hi

Lots of questions - here's a few answers.

1) If the pump is a normal magnetic drive, then throttling the *output* of the pump should not be a problem. Throttling the *input* is an issue. If you don't throttle it and you are recirculating through mash you will have an issue. Simply recirculating the hot water tank is not an issue.

2) Maybe a nomenclature issue, but worth a comment - breakers are not a good idea for switching valves or pumps. They are rated for a very low number of on/off cycles. Switches are a *much* better idea.

Bob

 

[Ciderguy]

I am not looking to over complicate it. I will probably just run one main breaker for the whole system? and a main switch, and switches to run the separate pumps, and monitors for the temps. That should simplify it... Any advice on a manufacturing that makes some nice sealed boxes to run wiring into and mount temp and switches, ect.? I have been looking a little but haven't come up with anything

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

The local big hardware stores will have all the electrical boxes., wire, conduit etc. you'll need. Just ask for help when you get there.

There's got to be few places in the Bellingham area. I haven't been up there in 20 years but there was one hardware store that was multistory and had everything you could imagine.

 

[Ciderguy]

hardware sales . my friend works there. ill check it out. And I have a nice magnetic drive pump... I might put that pump in as my mash circulation pump and get some less expensive ones for my other pumps.

 

[Ciderguy]

I am looking at doing PID controllers. they are affordable, and they should do everything I need them to. I am putting together a list to order when I get paid! Once I put together a controller I can start ordering some electric ball valves, heating elements, temp sensors, and be on my way...

 

[jcaudill]

I would think long and hard about motorized ball valves. I've personally never really understood this - it's a lot more wiring, a lot more relays, a lot more to go wrong, a lot more expensive and it really takes away from brewing. Simple manual ball valves where you can see how far they are cracked easily, and gate valves for very precise control I think would be a much better idea. Just my 2 cents. Probably not going to be a popular opinion but I just think there's a point where one has to say what's the point. Save the money for other things you haven't thought of because trust me - you're going to need them.

To answer your other question: there is no issue with pumping grain particulate or for that matter hot/cold break material through the head. It's just a plastic impeller.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

jcaudill - As a custom builder I have to disagree. As you can see there are MANY different ways to brew. It's a matter of personal preference. I personally don't care to have all the automation but many do. It's a hobby and therefore boils down to wants and budget.
One of the members on this board (kladue) has taken home brewing to the bleeding edge. His experience has made him one of the most knowledgeable helpful resources we have.

 

[jcaudill]

I know it exists - and I know it can work. I was merely suggesting thinking about it before pulling the trigger. I am not bashing Kladue - or anyone that has used them. Kladue has been a big help to me as well.

But I do think sometimes the excitement can get ahead of the practicality and I was merely suggesting to think about it. What I learned about building my outfit from the ground up is there are so many expenses in so many places you'd never even think about. The brewstand is like 1/4th of it. And this is another place for something to go wrong and it becomes a real pain.

And just to get this out - I am not poo-poonig automation by any means. My Brewtroller is invaluable for temperature control.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

Ciderguy - I have questions about your frame:
Why is it so tall?
Why are the platforms so big?

 

[Ciderguy]

I have a 2bbl system on order. Ready for pick up in July, I understand that it looks silly with the keggles but it is built to the dimensions of my 2bbl system. I may need to add some diagonal supports eventually. (I don't need to have switches and electric ball valves everywhere and automation), however one day I might want to license the system or start a small brew pub/ eatery and if I go in that direction I may want some additional automation to make the process as easy and time/energy efficient as possible. At times I wish I had built something smaller and just added another pump... this damn thing is so tall... Once I fit the larger system in, and remove the top burner, there is a good chance I might cut the top off and lower it as much as I can.

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

That's what I suspected. Reason I asked was the kettle supports might be a little on the small side. (Not certain, just an observation)

 

[Ciderguy]

I may be adding a couple diagonal supports and I used the heavier gauge steel on the whole system. 120mm I believe. I should be pretty sturdy.

 

[Ciderguy]

You seem to be knowledgeable about system building. Do you have any input. I leveled everything and am confident in my welds, and went with heavy gauge steel. should I absolutely put in diagonal supports prior to setting the larger system on it. or should I get 4 or 5 friends to hang on the thing and evaluate its strength? 60 gallons x 8.35 pounds per gallon = 500 pounds.... plus the kettle... I'm pretty sure that I will probably cut the upper platform and lower in as much as I can with the 2bbl HLT

 

[OneHoppyGuy]

I'm not an engineer. How I say what I'm about to may make an engineer laugh or scorn me... but I believe they would agree with the principles.

The support rails (in red) are the concern. The distance they are spanning appears too great for the load they can carry. If I were building it, I would use 2 x 1 x .065. The height of the tube is the critical dimension. There are online calculators that can help with the design also. I don't recall where off hand, but I used them when I was designing or systems. Running horizontal braces will not increase vertical strength by much. And yes, I agree, vertical diagonal braces or gussets are needed for shear. The legs are fine because the stresses are vertical.
Heavier gauge steel will not accomplish as much as taller steel in this case. The reason being is this is a static structure and the main area of concern is vertical down force. If you look at modern beams, they are often made from plywood because the stresses are downward.

 

[Ciderguy]

Thanks for the input. I keep it all in mind, and probably end up adding some more supports. Post some pictures when I do

 

[carlisle_bob]

Thanks for the input. I keep it all in mind, and probably end up adding some more supports. Post some pictures when I do

Hi

Also consider that if you do decide to "go pro" with this setup OSHA / insurance people will have some *big* issues with the height and mounting of the kegs...

Bob

 

[Ciderguy]

Thanks! I am planning on lowering that top shelf quite a bit... hopefully that will do it! and short of everything else, I have a welder, and it would only cost 300-500 and about a week to go out and build myself another stand.

 

[krazydave]

My question is, how do you intend to clean a 2bbl mash tun when it's that high up?
That seems like a lot of work on a very tall ladder!

 

[Ciderguy]

I know... when i set the new kettles in I will be lowering the top as much as I can (in fact I will probably need to lower the brew kettle platform too so I will be at it with my grinder for a while, I'm sure), and I will most definitely be fabricating something to tip the mash tun. And yes, I will be welding some kind of a small staircase/working platform. I really do appreciate all of your input. This is the first system I have ever built, the first real structure I have welded, and I do need advice! I won't necessarily be able to solve all of these issues right away, but every brew system is a work in progress. I am 22 years old learning a ton and having fun with it. The more feedback I get the more direction I will have. I regret not drawing up a dimensional drawing and asking for input first, but I have my welder sitting next to it and I can always add or remove (preferable that I don't start over from scratch but maybe eventually). Thank you again everyone!

 

[carlisle_bob]

Thanks! I am planning on lowering that top shelf quite a bit... hopefully that will do it! and short of everything else, I have a welder, and it would only cost 300-500 and about a week to go out and build myself another stand.

Hi

If the *top* of the assembly is much over five feet, you will need to pretty much bolt it all in place. That includes ancoring the kegs to the frame with some sort of straps. If you are in California or someplace similar there are additional things you will have to do.

Bob

 

[Ciderguy]

Well crap. haha, Thanks for letting me know. I should have checked in here before welding it all together. So even on my 2bbl system I need to keep the top of my kettles under 5 feet? I live in Washington. I'll see if I can't find a home brewer interested in this system, and start over! hell, why not. I like welding and I can change some little things that I would do differently. Maybe I'll jump into it this summer. Thank you for all the input!

 

[carlisle_bob]

Well crap. haha, Thanks for letting me know. I should have checked in here before welding it all together. So even on my 2bbl system I need to keep the top of my kettles under 5 feet? I live in Washington. I'll see if I can't find a home brewer interested in this system, and start over! hell, why not. I like welding and I can change some little things that I would do differently. Maybe I'll jump into it this summer. Thank you for all the input!

Hi

Either you keep it low enough for people to deal with easily (which works out to about 5 feet, might get away with 6) or you bolt it / strap it / chain it in place. The risk they are worried about is an employee getting a bunch of hot wort dumped on them.

If you make it for your own use, pretty much anything goes unless you are in an earthquake area. Then they want it tied in place so something heavy doesn't go bouncing around in a quake. There is a threshold for that sort of stuff and it varies state to state.

Bob

 

[Boar Beer]

I agree with Carlisle_Bob


We have a 2bbl set up. For a 2bbl brewery you don't want your kettles up like that. Its ok for little stuff but you will injure someone or your self. Please don't put 60-70 gallons of hot water above you. Build a stand 6-8 in off the ground and run pumps. The extra money and time your going to spend making a stand should be spent on a couple pumps. You want to be able to look inside your MT and stir your mash you want to see your sparge water and check the level "easily"

We have run a 1bb system professionally for 2 years and have changed to a 2bbl system recently. The advice i am giving is backed up with real life experience. Hoses come loose, fittings leak, and HOT water burns and burns like a *****. For Gods sake don't put HOT water up over your head.

Put all you vessels on or near the ground.

 

[Ciderguy]

Thanks for the advice, This is a very old Thread. Here is the stand I built. We recently just took second place people's choice at a recent competition out of 41 breweries.

 

[Boar Beer]

Now that looks good!