Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[mosaicbrewer]

Also, forgot to mention, I have been using a lot of 1318 in my attempts to make a beer in the HF style. I have been pushing the top end of the temp range even bumping right up at 74 and am getting no major esters and certainty nothing undesirable. I would still call it clean even. I wonder if fermenting it that low is pushing out more esters as some strains tend to?

 

[Callacave]

"Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?"
I'm curious in how you know that/got that information.

With that said, if you look back a few pages (I know this thread is getting lengthy) a few of us have tried SO4/CL with varying results. I recently made two brews at 175:100 and found it too minerally.

I remember in a few posts where Martin talked about how malt also contributes a lot of minerals to the beer. 250 sulfate seems pretty low to me in the finished beer. I think I remember somewhere on these boards where someone tested Heady Topper, and it was around 468? It's impossible to know how much a brewer has added by testing the finished beer, but if this 250 number is true, it's at least some good info.

I found it. Here's a sample of what Martin posted in the Heady Topper thread where we can see typical ranges from what barley can contribute with respect to inorganic components....

"Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

There are more listed, but I'm tired of typing. The ranges cover a lot of styles and countries of origin, but this does give you an indication of many ions that malt contributes. In the case of Mg, malt supplies about 1 g Mg per kg of grain. Ca is supplied at the rate of about 0.3 g per kg of grain. If all that content makes it into the wort, that equates to about 60 ppm Ca and 150 ppm Mg.

As you can see, malt is a big contributor of necessary ions for yeast growth and health. Adding those ions to water is NOT necessary for the yeast. But we do like to add them for more flavor in our beer!

The other question that is answered here is that chloride is indeed supplied by malt. So the result shown above is a reasonable representation of a beer."

Why is everyone using oats and stuff?
Maybe in an attempt to get close, but I agree, it's not the answer.

I also agree, and my next brew will be without. We're just assuming that Shaun is being honest with what is reported on his website, but maybe there are some things being omitted? For now I'm trusting what's reported on the website.

His gravities are on point for 1318
Agreed, he's def using a strain like 1318 or conan or something along those lines. Callacave went to HF just recently and he mentioned he didn't pick up the esters that those strains typically throw even when fermented cooler. So it's still a mystery until someone cultures some and does a side by side. Maybe Callacave will hop in here and give some insight.

Gravity does seem to be in line with an English strain, but attenuation can also be manipulated by other factors. From having multiple different beers from Hill over the past weekend I just can't detect the 1318 esters. My palette definitely isn't the best, and I'm sure hops cover up a bunch too.

One of my last beers with 1318 that I fermented cool still had that familiar ester. It did seem to fade, or blend in after some time in the keezer, or maybe my taste buds just got used to it after having it multiple times on tap.

I saw that Shaun is using bunging valves on his fermenters now. I don't remember this being mentioned before, and this could be something new to his brewhouse expansion. This tells me he's fermenting under slight pressure, and possibly carbing in the fermenters. Fermenting under pressure can reduce esters, so maybe 1318 isn't out of the question?

 

[The_Glue]

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

I find this hard to believe. Wouldn't the mash phs be all over the place if malts can have this much variety? How can be a difference between RO water and a "regular" tap water brew (in terms of taste) if malts contain 10x much of everything anyways. I think all mash ph calculators depend only on the malt's color/roast level to calculate ph. But for example a variance of ~800ppm in Cl must cause a huge variance in ph too.

 

[Colbizle]

I'm still curious in where mosaicbrewer came up with the 250 sulfate information.

 

[Braufessor]

I find this hard to believe. Wouldn't the mash phs be all over the place if malts can have this much variety? How can be a difference between RO water and a "regular" tap water brew (in terms of taste) if malts contain 10x much of everything anyways. I think all mash ph calculators depend only on the malt's color/roast level to calculate ph. But for example a variance of ~800ppm in Cl must cause a huge variance in ph too.

That would be a good question for the brew science forum..... but, I don't think it just depends on the "color." I think Bru'n water and maybe other calculators factor in what a set amt. of grain does to a set amt. of water in terms of pH. Way over my head for sure. But, I know 2 things:

1.) There is a very large contribution of various ions from the grain into the final beer.

2.) By whatever magic, B'run water still pretty much nails it every time.

If a finished HF beer only has 250ppm sulfate .... then much less was added to the mash than 250. Now, if there is a different source that is just saying 250 is added to the mash, I would be curious about that source of information as well.
My personal experience thus far has been that 175+ on sulfate sends a beer toward "crisp" and "sharp" in its expression of hops. Could be more at play.....I don't pretend to be HF that is for sure. But, when I have played with water, that is what happens. When I put sulfate under 100 and bump chloride up to 75+...... I get a "softer" beer.

 

[kaz4121]

Edward finished beer sulfate is 250. magnesium is quite high. Think CL is higher or lower?
Why is everyone using oats and stuff? His ingredients are listed on his page! Say someone with a wheat only type allergy read his page and consumed his beer. That may be a problem if he uses wheat or non GF oats and someone has a bad reaction.
He outlines so much about his beer, and the gravities are on point for 1318 and many medium attenuating yeasts.
Rahr has been said to be one of his base malts.
Lots of good chatter on this thread.
How many ounces per gallon do you all think? When you say he uses extract, sure maybe, but I doubt it's in his single hops, unless he is getting citra extract galaxy extract etc...

I know adjuncts aren't claimed to be used in the HF recipes, but if we cannot replicate the mouthfeel with yeast selection and technique, it may be a good "workaround" to achieve a similar mouthfeel.

Obviously Shaun is a world class brewer, so I doubt we will ever be able to replicate his technique, but I started this thread as a means to achieve a similar mouthfeel to his beers, not necessarily mimic his exact process (although it would be nice!)

 

[Colbizle]

I know adjuncts aren't claimed to be used in the HF recipes, but if we cannot replicate the mouthfeel with yeast selection and technique, it may be a good "workaround" to achieve a similar mouthfeel.

Obviously Shaun is a world class brewer, so I doubt we will ever be able to replicate his technique, but I started this thread as a means to achieve a similar mouthfeel to his beers, not necessarily mimic his exact process (although it would be nice!)

Obviously Shaun is a world class brewer, so I doubt we will ever be able to replicate his technique, but I started this thread as a means to achieve a similar mouthfeel to his beers, not necessarily mimic his exact process

THIS! ^

I'm currently in the realm of experimenting and what works for me and my palate. I've never even had a HF beer! But I am intrigued by attempting to achieve a "similar" mouthfeel in my own brews. I'm not trying to clone HF... cloning to me is not as fun as creating your own art and sharing it with the world. That's what gets me going. But hey, everyone's different and that's why we brew!

 

[Colbizle]

That would be a good question for the brew science forum..... but, I don't think it just depends on the "color." I think Bru'n water and maybe other calculators factor in what a set amt. of grain does to a set amt. of water in terms of pH. Way over my head for sure. But, I know 2 things:

1.) There is a very large contribution of various ions from the grain into the final beer.

2.) By whatever magic, B'run water still pretty much nails it every time.

If a finished HF beer only has 250ppm sulfate .... then much less was added to the mash than 250. Now, if there is a different source that is just saying 250 is added to the mash, I would be curious about that source of information as well.
My personal experience thus far has been that 175+ on sulfate sends a beer toward "crisp" and "sharp" in its expression of hops. Could be more at play.....I don't pretend to be HF that is for sure. But, when I have played with water, that is what happens. When I put sulfate under 100 and bump chloride up to 75+...... I get a "softer" beer.

Until we actually have more info on where this claim of 250 ppm sulfate came from I don't think we should continue to acknowledge it as helpful info.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Until we actually have more info on where this claim of 250 ppm sulfate came from I don't think we should continue to acknowledge it as helpful info.

it came from ward labs test results. test done in April of 14.

S04-S= 82/246
CaC03=843

 

[Callacave]

it came from ward labs test results. test done in April of 14.

S04-S= 82/246
CaC03=843

Then it pretty much confirms what we've all been thinking. Low sulfate with higher chloride. This is good info.

By any chance do you know which beer it is? Edward is my guess?

 

[Colbizle]

it came from ward labs test results. test done in April of 14.

S04-S= 82/246
CaC03=843

Did you have the lab results done? Is there more info you could provide us? If ward labs did a full panel then chloride should be included too as well as the other ions and a PH value.

 

[Colbizle]

Then it pretty much confirms what we've all been thinking. Low sulfate with higher chloride. This is good info.

By any chance do you know which beer it is? Edward is my guess?

I saw this in a different thread but I didn't see Kaz post it here.

FWIW, tested a de-carbonated sample of Edward this weekend. pH reading of 4.41

 

[Callacave]

My mistake. I thought that was chloride when I looked quickly. Hopefully that info is available

 

[mosaicbrewer]

yes edward

 

[Colbizle]

yes edward

I see. So you did have it analyzed but are reluctant to share the info. That's ok though, I can personally understand why you wouldn't. You went through the work/trouble of getting the beer and then paying for the sample to be tested and now you have the results and you're trying to make sense of them.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

PH was 4.4 as discussed and we can just say chloride is higher than sulfate.

 

[Colbizle]

PH was 4.4 as discussed and we can just say chloride is higher than sulfate.

I respect your response. Thanks for contributing!

 

[Colbizle]

Curious, you guys think treehouse brewing and tired hands brewing are rolling with similar water profiles as HF? I see their beer reviews exhibit the same characteristics as HF in that they have that nice mouthfeel we are trying to achieve.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

curious, you guys think treehouse brewing and tired hands brewing are rolling with similar water profiles as hf? I see their beer reviews exhibit the same characteristics as hf in that they have that nice mouthfeel we are trying to achieve.

yes!

 

[Braufessor]

Curious, you guys think treehouse brewing and tired hands brewing are rolling with similar water profiles as HF? I see their beer reviews exhibit the same characteristics as HF in that they have that nice mouthfeel we are trying to achieve.

I have had a couple from treehouse and they very much reminded me of HF and similar.

I kegged a couple more beers today - A basic APA and a DIPA (HBT Heady clone of sorts). Both of these were around 115 on sulfate and about 70 on chloride. Both were very smooth and a step in the right direction. Both were much better than other similar versions I had brewed with the more typical high sulfate/low chloride levels.

Also sampled my Amber ale - very full/rich/creamy..... (80 sulfate/60 Chloride)

These were also beers that went 40-60% hard tap water and the rest RO..... Bicarbonate levels were up in the 125-175 range, and then offset with relatively small amounts of lactic acid. I let the pH's go up into the 5.4-5.5 range on these beers in the mash and then into the kettle.

I am anxious to keg my last two in the series - Both IPA's - Citra/Galaxy and a Citra/Mosaic. 70 sulfate and 150 Chloride on both of these. Probably looking at another 5-7 days for those two though.

Conan yeast on all of these beers.

So far all of these seem to be a step in the right direction.... These final two are the more extreme trials though, so will update when they are ready for sampling.

 

[Callacave]

I have had a couple from treehouse and they very much reminded me of HF and similar.

I kegged a couple more beers today - A basic APA and a DIPA (HBT Heady clone of sorts). Both of these were around 115 on sulfate and about 70 on chloride. Both were very smooth and a step in the right direction. Both were much better than other similar versions I had brewed with the more typical high sulfate/low chloride levels.

Also sampled my Amber ale - very full/rich/creamy..... (80 sulfate/60 Chloride)

These were also beers that went 40-60% hard tap water and the rest RO..... Bicarbonate levels were up in the 125-175 range, and then offset with relatively small amounts of lactic acid. I let the pH's go up into the 5.4-5.5 range on these beers in the mash and then into the kettle.

I am anxious to keg my last two in the series - Both IPA's - Citra/Galaxy and a Citra/Mosaic. 70 sulfate and 150 Chloride on both of these. Probably looking at another 5-7 days for those two though.

Conan yeast on all of these beers.

So far all of these seem to be a step in the right direction.... These final two are the more extreme trials though, so will update when they are ready for sampling.

Awesome info Braufessor. Really looking forward to these last two brews where you targeted 70 sulfate/150 chloride. Haven't had time to brew in a little while, but hopefully I can slip one in soon.

Here's a pic from last weekend up in VT at Parker Pie Co. Awesome pizza, and such a cool place. This is HF Galaxy single hop Pale Ale. No flash was used in this pic. Notice how damn cloudy this beast is. Super soft bitterness, with a great mouthfeel, and beautiful flavor/aroma from the Galaxy hops.

 

[Catphish]

I was just in Iowa and went to Toppling Goliath. I can say that based on all the beers I had, they were right on par with all the Hill Farmstead beers I tried. When I got back I tried a glass of a Chinook/Citra IPA that I racked before I went and I got the same mouthfeel. I used Dennys Favorite 1450 yeast. The beer is super dry(1.007) but still maintains a creamy mouthfeel and head retention is awesome. I've been using more chloride than gypsum as well.

 

[Colbizle]

I was just in Iowa and went to Toppling Goliath. I can say that based on all the beers I had, they were right on par with all the Hill Farmstead beers I tried. When I got back I tried a glass of a Chinook/Citra IPA that I racked before I went and I got the same mouthfeel. I used Dennys Favorite 1450 yeast. The beer is super dry(1.007) but still maintains a creamy mouthfeel and head retention is awesome. I've been using more chloride than gypsum as well.

This is great, I can't wait for Toppling Goliath to make it up to MN. Looks like they are eager to get into the MN market too.

Care to share your so4/cl levels?

 

[Catphish]

It depends on the beer. Also we all have to realize that you get calcium chloride from the malt as well. Try equal chloride to gypsum in your next beer then thank me later

 

[Colbizle]

It depends on the beer. Also we all have to realize that you get calcium chloride from the malt as well. Try equal chloride to gypsum in your next beer then thank me later

Of course it depends on the beer.

"Also we all have to realize that you get calcium chloride from the malt as well" - Indeed, we are aware of this as well. Callacave posted some info Martin provided regarding malt ion contribution a few pages back.

If you look back in the thread we all have been experimenting. Sounds like you went equal amounts on your latest batch with good results. Good to know. Thanks.

 

[Braufessor]

I was just in Iowa and went to Toppling Goliath. I can say that based on all the beers I had, they were right on par with all the Hill Farmstead beers I tried. When I got back I tried a glass of a Chinook/Citra IPA that I racked before I went and I got the same mouthfeel. I used Dennys Favorite 1450 yeast. The beer is super dry(1.007) but still maintains a creamy mouthfeel and head retention is awesome. I've been using more chloride than gypsum as well.

Ha.... could have had a beer with you. 10 minutes from TG. The beer I have been most impressed with recently is Todd the Axeman by Surly.

 

[Colbizle]

Ha.... could have had a beer with you. 10 minutes from TG. The beer I have been most impressed with recently is Todd the Axeman by Surly.

I was just at surly this last weekend with some friends!

Todd the Axeman is indeed a delicious beer.

 

[Catphish]

Hey I wish we could have! I'll be hitting Arizona Wilderness tomorrow then in July my homebrewing buddy and I are going to hit up Trillium, Treehouse then Hill Farmstead if anyone in this thread wants to grab a beer. July 16th(Trillium/Treehouse) then Vermont 17-18th then back to Boston on the 19th. Would love to meet up and talk homebrew if anyone's around. Cheers!

 

[interman]

Hey I wish we could have! I'll be hitting Arizona Wilderness tomorrow then in July my homebrewing buddy and I are going to hit up Trillium, Treehouse then Hill Farmstead if anyone in this thread wants to grab a beer. July 16th(Trillium/Treehouse) then Vermont 17-18th then back to Boston on the 19th. Would love to meet up and talk homebrew if anyone's around. Cheers!

Vermont for the beer fest right? I will be there at session 1 on Friday. Heading down to Boston on the 20th or 21st for basically the same spots, plus Maine Beer Co, Night Shift, and a few others. Would be happy to meet up at the beer fest.

Also, about time I stopped lurking. Been reading this thread almost daily since the start, and it's taking my apas/ipas a step upwards.

 

[irishrover32]

On my last batch I used equal sulfat/chloride has anyone noticed the carbonation is different? First off it seems less than what I'd expect and bubbles are very fine, Its been carbing at 15psi for 2 weeks now, I checked for leaks so it's not that??? Do u think water profile is the cause?

 

[Catphish]

That's a nice lineup of breweries. We may have to do Night shift as well. Ha we booked our annual vermont trip not even knowing that fest was going on. If we go it'll be for session 1 and I'll let you know.

 

[Callacave]

On my last batch I used equal sulfat/chloride has anyone noticed the carbonation is different? First off it seems less than what I'd expect and bubbles are very fine, Its been carbing at 15psi for 2 weeks now, I checked for leaks so it's not that??? Do u think water profile is the cause?

Yes, I feel you can get the impression that it's less carbed, but really isn't. I get that with HF beers, and with my most recent ones. I think it can be a combo of the profile and hop oils.

 

[irishrover32]

It's funny it feels so creamy and silky it's amazing wat water can do, I think we need to get away from the malty/hoppy thing for sulfat/chloride ratios and instead refer to it as sharp/creamy mouthfeel as to me it influences the mouthfeel (which can effect bitterness)

 

[Braufessor]

I agree.... I think gravity also plays a big role in it - starting and finishing. It is easy for those 1.40-50 beers to really get thin, dry, overcarbed and sharp. Carbonation is often perceived quite differently in bigger stouts, porters, DIPA's, etc...... My stouts, porters, browns and even ambers are always very creamy, full, rich...... These are beers I always used more of my high bicarbonate water, and more chloride. In my limited trials, doing the same (bicarbonate/chloride/lower sulfate) in these lighter IPA's seems to bring an element of that body with it. Guess I will see for sure with these next couple batches in the fermenter.

 

[GotPushrods]

I guess I've been doing this for a long time and never realized it was a secret.

I keep sulfate under 50 (often under 20) and chloride around 70-100, even for hoppy styles.

Full/creamy/silky mouthfeel is often the first comment I get from people on my brews.

But then I'm one of those weirdos that just hates sulfate. I wryly use the term 'harsh' to describe it's effects. Want more hop 'character'? Use more hops!

Combine with 1450 and enjoy.

 

[wobrien]

Curious, you guys think treehouse brewing and tired hands brewing are rolling with similar water profiles as HF? I see their beer reviews exhibit the same characteristics as HF in that they have that nice mouthfeel we are trying to achieve.

I go to Tired Hands fairly often and I've been following this thread because it sounded so much like TH brews. From my discussions with the brewer/owner at TH, I've deduced that he is friendly with Shaun, uses the same (although mutated through multiple generations) yeast (I agree with the 1318 assumption) and brews in a very similar style.

Here is another good thread for you all to peruse (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=463439), though oats are used in that thread for mouthfeel and Jean (at TH) does indeed use oats in many brews).

Anyway, I've found a lot of useful information in this thread, thanks!

 

[Braufessor]

I go to Tired Hands fairly often and I've been following this thread because it sounded so much like TH brews. From my discussions with the brewer/owner at TH, I've deduced that he is friendly with Shaun, uses the same (although mutated through multiple generations) yeast (I agree with the 1318 assumption) and brews in a very similar style.

Here is another good thread for you all to peruse (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=463439), though oats are used in that thread for mouthfeel and Jean (at TH) does indeed use oats in many brews).

Anyway, I've found a lot of useful information in this thread, thanks!

I started to glance through the thread you linked, looks like a lot of great info. Have not had a chance to read all the way through yet - is there any consensus on water, pH, sulfate/chloride etc.??

 

[Colbizle]

I started to glance through the thread you linked, looks like a lot of great info. Have not had a chance to read all the way through yet - is there any consensus on water, pH, sulfate/chloride etc.??

Looks like nobody is messing with water in that thread. I've read it before too, good clone though.

 

[Colbizle]

I guess I've been doing this for a long time and never realized it was a secret.

I keep sulfate under 50 (often under 20) and chloride around 70-100, even for hoppy styles.

Full/creamy/silky mouthfeel is often the first comment I get from people on my brews.

But then I'm one of those weirdos that just hates sulfate. I wryly use the term 'harsh' to describe it's effects. Want more hop 'character'? Use more hops!

Combine with 1450 and enjoy.

I don't know if it's really a "secret" per se I guess I personally see it as more against the "standard" especially for your typical hoppy styles. But as we are all witnessing and experiencing brewing styles and conventions continue to change dramatically as craft beer becomes more and more popular and people discover new techniques that differentiate them in the marketplace.

That's really cool that you've been doing this for a while though with good results!

 

[Colbizle]

I go to Tired Hands fairly often and I've been following this thread because it sounded so much like TH brews. From my discussions with the brewer/owner at TH, I've deduced that he is friendly with Shaun, uses the same (although mutated through multiple generations) yeast (I agree with the 1318 assumption) and brews in a very similar style.

Here is another good thread for you all to peruse (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=463439), though oats are used in that thread for mouthfeel and Jean (at TH) does indeed use oats in many brews).

Anyway, I've found a lot of useful information in this thread, thanks!

TH looks like they brew a lot of Belgian beers too. I'm assuming all their other beers exhibit this mouthfeel too?