Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[bierhaus15]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but this so called "hop-haze" has little to do with hop oils and everything to do with suspended yeast, bound-polyphenols, proteins, tannins, ect. If you take the time to centrifuge any of the hoppy HF, Treehouse, or Alchemist beers, you end up with a bunch of yeast in the bottom of your vial. That's because these beers are not filtered or centrifuged and contain lots of yeast, among other compounds.

As you remove yeast and polyphenols from beer, you end up with better, more defined hop character.

 

[Colbizle]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but this so called "hop-haze" has little to do with hop oils and everything to do with suspended yeast, bound-polyphenols, proteins, tannins, ect. If you take the time to centrifuge any of the hoppy HF, Treehouse, or Alchemist beers, you end up with a bunch of yeast in the bottom of your vial. That's because these beers are not filtered or centrifuged and contain lots of yeast, among other compounds.

As you remove yeast and polyphenols from beer, you end up with better, more defined hop character.

1000x this^

57 posts and we always seem to start back at square one. You'd think we'd discuss this already.

 

[bbohanon]

1000x this^

57 posts and we always seem to start back at square one. You'd think we'd discuss this already.

It aint over till its over!
This is why I have not been cold crashing as of yet as I have been getting the taste profile I am aiming for with the yeast in suspension and following the other items I ticked off in an earlier post..Makes for a soft, juicy, "orange juice looking" IPA, but its damn good.

I might still try cold crashing a batch or 2 for a short cycle to pull some but not all of that yeast out just to clear the beer up a tad though and see how the taste profile adjusts.

:fro:

 

[kevink]

It aint over till its over!
This is why I have not been cold crashing as of yet as I have been getting the taste profile I am aiming for with the yeast in suspension and following the other items I ticked off in an earlier post..Makes for a soft, juicy, "orange juice looking" IPA, but its damn good.

I might still try cold crashing a batch or 2 for a short cycle to pull some but not all of that yeast out just to clear the beer up a tad though and see how the taste profile adjusts.

:fro:

Your other post mentions how you think that "alot if not all of the HFS "hazyness" in their beers is due completely to the hop haze, not any yeast in suspension with their PAs/IPAs,"

Are you shooting for a Hill mouthfeel or not?

One of your posts says that you like the yeast in suspension and the other says that Hill beers achieve good mouthfeel from hop haze, not yeast in suspension.

 

[bbohanon]

Your other post mentions how you think that "alot if not all of the HFS "hazyness" in their beers is due completely to the hop haze, not any yeast in suspension with their PAs/IPAs,"

Are you shooting for a Hill mouthfeel or not?

One of your posts says that you like the yeast in suspension and the other says that Hill beers achieve good mouthfeel from hop haze, not yeast in suspension.

So to date, I am getting what I perceive as a close profile to HFS taste/mouth feel/softness/head and lacing without cold crashing the yeast out (using Conan).
However, the thing I notice more than anything with using Conan in particular is how my batches look (which is very "muddy looking" as a description) in the glass due to how Conan tends to not flocc much at all, especially when young.

For me its not a problem, but with some of the folks that drink my beer, its noticeable and for some, a complete turnoff. (yea I know I should not care what others think, but I am a stickler for how my beer is perceived..plus its something else I can test/work on to dial in on my batches)

As mentioned before Conan is such a damn good yeast for PAs and IPAs its hard not to use it..

My batches with Conan and no cold crashing tends to be far more muddier in the glass than I have seen HFS IPAs and PAs be including their DIIPAs which made me wonder if they are cold crashing their batches (if the yeast they are using as we know its not Conan, is a low flocc'er like Conan is) to drop out some or most of the yeast out along with a massive dry hop to keep a alot of the haze/hop oils in the glass and if that is in any way helping their beers hop profile without sacrificing or maybe even enhancing the mouthfeel/softness a bit more..again..I have yet to attempt a cold crash with Conan along with a massive dry hop to test this, but want to try and see what I get.

NOTE: I know HFS is unfiltered and all, so SOME of the yeast is going to be there regardless..

The other variable is if they are using an english strain (as we know they are not using Conan at HFS at this time) then maybe it is NOT as low floccing as Conan usually is and the yeast is in there, but just not as "clingy" to stay suspended as Conan usually is without a cold crash.
This is yet another interesting test that I want to do with the english strains I mentioned before based on those yeast profiles.

I am no where even close to claiming I am 100% there with their profile by any means, but I "think" I am getting close(r) based on having quite bit of their beer over this past Thanksgiving holiday as well as having 10 more bottles of their brew sitting in my fridge (although sadly they do NOT bottle any of their IPAs).

Its all about dialing in and testing the little things that will get my own batches to really pop like theirs does with the balanced, clean, crisp and soft mouthfeel/taste profile but not have it look like total pond water when I serve it.

Below is a post of some Abner I had less than a month ago for reference..my batches using Conan without a cold crash are much "muddier" than this brew looks:

Sorry if I confused anyone on the previous posts and damn that photo makes me want to make another roadtrip to HFS.

 

[kevink]

Sorry if I confused anyone on the previous posts and damn that photo makes me want to make another roadtrip to HFS.

No problem at all and thanks for clarifying! I'm just really interested in the thought and brewing process of anyone trying to emulate these amazing beers. I'm sure it's possible, but there's definitely no consensus yet. One thing I wonder about, though... Aren't basically all commercial beers that are carbonated in a bright tank essentially cold crashed in that bright tank? Are they dry hopping them in the bright tank or before? I highly doubt they're doing it after.

 

[Colbizle]

No problem at all and thanks for clarifying! I'm just really interested in the thought and brewing process of anyone trying to emulate these amazing beers. I'm sure it's possible, but there's definitely no consensus yet. One thing I wonder about, though... Aren't basically all commercial beers that are carbonated in a bright tank essentially cold crashed in that bright tank? Are they dry hopping them in the bright tank or before? I highly doubt they're doing it after.

At my friends brewery we cold crash in the ferm to drop yeast. Then harvest, and transfer to bright where it carbs in about under a day, then we transfer from the keg straight out of the bright. He doesn't filter his beers or use any finings and his beers are mostly clear with some haze.

 

[Colbizle]

So to date, I am getting what I perceive as a close profile to HFS taste/mouth feel/softness/head and lacing without cold crashing the yeast out (using Conan).
However, the thing I notice more than anything with using Conan in particular is how my batches look (which is very "muddy looking" as a description) in the glass due to how Conan tends to not flocc much at all, especially when young.

For me its not a problem, but with some of the folks that drink my beer, its noticeable and for some, a complete turnoff. (yea I know I should not care what others think, but I am a stickler for how my beer is perceived..plus its something else I can test/work on to dial in on my batches)

As mentioned before Conan is such a damn good yeast for PAs and IPAs its hard not to use it..

My batches with Conan and no cold crashing tends to be far more muddier in the glass than I have seen HFS IPAs and PAs be including their DIIPAs which made me wonder if they are cold crashing their batches (if the yeast they are using as we know its not Conan, is a low flocc'er like Conan is) to drop out some or most of the yeast out along with a massive dry hop to keep a alot of the haze/hop oils in the glass and if that is in any way helping their beers hop profile without sacrificing or maybe even enhancing the mouthfeel/softness a bit more..again..I have yet to attempt a cold crash with Conan along with a massive dry hop to test this, but want to try and see what I get.

NOTE: I know HFS is unfiltered and all, so SOME of the yeast is going to be there regardless..

The other variable is if they are using an english strain (as we know they are not using Conan at HFS at this time) then maybe it is NOT as low floccing as Conan usually is and the yeast is in there, but just not as "clingy" to stay suspended as Conan usually is without a cold crash.
This is yet another interesting test that I want to do with the english strains I mentioned before based on those yeast profiles.

I am no where even close to claiming I am 100% there with their profile by any means, but I "think" I am getting close(r) based on having quite bit of their beer over this past Thanksgiving holiday as well as having 10 more bottles of their brew sitting in my fridge (although sadly they do NOT bottle any of their IPAs).

Its all about dialing in and testing the little things that will get my own batches to really pop like theirs does with the balanced, clean, crisp and soft mouthfeel/taste profile but not have it look like total pond water when I serve it.

Below is a post of some Abner I had less than a month ago for reference..my batches using Conan without a cold crash are much "muddier" than this brew looks:

Sorry if I confused anyone on the previous posts and damn that photo makes me want to make another roadtrip to HFS.

According to pictures I've seen, trilliums and Tree houses beers look way muddier than hill farmstead?

 

[bbohanon]

No problem at all and thanks for clarifying! I'm just really interested in the thought and brewing process of anyone trying to emulate these amazing beers. I'm sure it's possible, but there's definitely no consensus yet. One thing I wonder about, though... Aren't basically all commercial beers that are carbonated in a bright tank essentially cold crashed in that bright tank? Are they dry hopping them in the bright tank or before? I highly doubt they're doing it after.

Cannot answer how HFS are dry hopping their beers or if they have any bright tanks in use, but I do know a good portion of their bottle releases are bottle carbed so they never see force carbing or a bright tank if I had to wager. They again also do not bottle any of their IPAs that I have seen either so maybe they do something different with those?

From their "Arthur" notes: Unfiltered and naturally carbonated, this is the ale that I dream to have shared with Arthur."

They just do about everything different than what you would expect which is why it makes it fun to experiment with things to find that special beer profile that all of their beers have which make them unique.

 

[bbohanon]

According to pictures I've seen, trilliums and Tree houses beers look way muddier than hill farmstead?

Sadly I have not had the pleasure of trying any of these to date.

 

[bbohanon]

And since we are discussing HFS and because I am going to have another bottle of this tonight, I will share a pic of the HFS "Twilight Of The Idols" Winter Porter. Without a doubt, one of the best winter porters on the planet.

 

[kevink]

At my friends brewery we cold crash in the ferm to drop yeast. Then harvest, and transfer to bright where it carbs in about under a day, then we transfer from the keg straight out of the bright. He doesn't filter his beers or use any finings and his beers are mostly clear with some haze.

So there's no additional cooling in the bright? Where do you dry hop (if at all)?

 

[kevink]

They again also do not bottle any of their IPAs that I have seen either so maybe they do something different with those?

Right, he wants the IPAs/pale ales drank fresh, so that's why he doesn't bottle them. He probably doesn't want to risk someone drinking an old IPA from a bottle that doesn't taste how he intended, which is only going to taste that way when fresh.

 

[Colbizle]

So there's no additional cooling in the bright? Where do you dry hop (if at all)?

Nope. Dry hop directly in the fermentor after fermentation is done. Cold crash dropping yeast and hop particulate. Then transfer cold to the bright tank for carbonation.

 

[Braufessor]

And since we are discussing HFS and because I am going to have another bottle of this tonight, I will share a pic of the HFS "Twilight Of The Idols" Winter Porter. Without a doubt, one of the best winter porters on the planet.

I believe it..... their "Everett" porter is the best porter I have ever had. I am far more impressed with that porter than I am with their IPA's.

 

[Colbizle]

I believe it..... their "Everett" porter is the best porter I have ever had. I am far more impressed with that porter than I am with their IPA's.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the mash time on his porter was super quick, mash temp was very hot and the final Gravity was high like in the 1.030 range or something?!

 

[kevink]

Agreed. Everett is the best porter I've ever had, but I'll admit that I have not had millions of them.

 

[olotti]

I wAs just looking at their website again and I love for how small a brewery they are and how hard it is to get their beers they give a lot of info on their beers. I don't know why but I think it's a cool feature from them.

 

[Braufessor]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that the mash time on his porter was super quick, mash temp was very hot and the final Gravity was high like in the 1.030 range or something?!

Yep - it is in the 1.030 range for FG.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=351264

 

[Colbizle]

Yep - it is in the 1.030 range for FG.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=351264

Dammmnnnn

 

[olotti]

Dammmnnnn

Yeah their website states a 21deg Plato minus 1.030 x 131= about 7.5% Abv. Spot on. That's big for a porter heck that's big for a ris. Their site also says ale yeast so I immediately assume it's a wlp001 strain but I guess it could be an English ale yeast to that doesn't attenuate to keep that high fg which would make more sense,wlp007 maybe?

 

[Callacave]

Everett is definitely my favorite Porter of all time. To me it actually drinks more like a Stout, in the sense that it has a good amount of roast to it. Just finished my last bottle this week, and I can't wait for him to come out with more. It's just a perfect balance of roast and chocolate from the malt.

Trillium does seem more hazy than Hill. Part of me thinks that JC is rushing his beers out a little early because of capacity and demand. I don't think he has enough time to drop out a good chunk of yeast. He's even publicly said that he likes his hoppy stuff better after about a month in the bottle. My boss has had stomach issues with Trillium lately. I think it's the excessive yeast. Hopefully when he opens his new place in Canton it'll allow him more time to refine his hoppy beers.

Sometimes he has to hold back a keg from the tap room for a day because of floaties. That tells me there isn't really any conditioning time between batches. Regardless, his beers are still awesome.

 

[mtnagel]

i have been using conan for everything..... APA's, IPA's, Blonde Ale, Brown Ale, porter..... pretty much my house yeast. I either step it up from Heady Topper Cans or I use GigaYeast. I make a 1L starter 18 hours before I brew, and pitch the entire 1L right in while it is actively fermenting. First generation I always start it in a batch of 1.040 Blonde Ale. Low gravity, low hops. I harvest 6 one pint mason jars of slurry out of the blonde. I make sure I use one of those 6 jars on another blonde (to harvest 6 more jars). The other 5 I use in whatever I want.... usually hoppy brews. I always make a 1L starter and pitch it while actively fermenting. My gravity always ends up around 1.011-1.012 with this method. About perfect FG for my tastes.

Sorry if you've posted before, but how long will you keep one of these pint mason jars of slurry from the blonde ale before you won't use it anymore?

 

[Braufessor]

Sorry if you've posted before, but how long will you keep one of these pint mason jars of slurry from the blonde ale before you won't use it anymore?

I prefer to use them within about 8 weeks...... and I usually do use them up within that time frame.... or I have brewed another batch of blonde and have more jars on hand to use that are fresh - and I might discard a 3 month old jar in preference for the fresh stuff I just harvested.

That said - I think you can keep them much longer than that probably. I brewed a czech pilsner June 26th. Harvested a couple jars of yeast. 2 weeks ago I got a bug to experiment with a "czech-american" lager. Used 2 Row base malt. used US Saaz hops and figured I would try one of the old jars of czech lager yeast I still had in my fridge - this was on November 28 - so that yeast was 5 months old. I made a 1L starter. Fermented at 51 degrees for 2 weeks and just sampled this morning - it was fantastic - better than the original pilsner I brewed with new yeast in June.

I believe Brulosopher did an experiment a month or two ago with new slurry and really old slurry and had no problems either. Might want to check his website and see what he came up with.

Really comes down to how clean and healthy were the yeast you harvested and how sanitary was your process of storing. If all of that was good, I bet you could easily use yeast that was 4-6 months old for sure (with a starter).

I just rotate through it so fast that I am rarely in that position.

 

[ultravista]

Subscribing.

Here's a great read:
http://brulosophy.com/2015/12/14/wa...tion-mineral-adjustments-exbeeriment-results/

 

[kaz4121]

Everett is definitely my favorite Porter of all time. To me it actually drinks more like a Stout, in the sense that it has a good amount of roast to it. Just finished my last bottle this week, and I can't wait for him to come out with more. It's just a perfect balance of roast and chocolate from the malt.

Trillium does seem more hazy than Hill. Part of me thinks that JC is rushing his beers out a little early because of capacity and demand. I don't think he has enough time to drop out a good chunk of yeast. He's even publicly said that he likes his hoppy stuff better after about a month in the bottle. My boss has had stomach issues with Trillium lately. I think it's the excessive yeast. Hopefully when he opens his new place in Canton it'll allow him more time to refine his hoppy beers.

Sometimes he has to hold back a keg from the tap room for a day because of floaties. That tells me there isn't really any conditioning time between batches. Regardless, his beers are still awesome.

I've also heard that JC uses wheat pretty aggressively in his IPAs...

 

[globe]

Well i can offer up some anecdotal evidence. I just brewed a IPA, here is the recipe.
My Batch was for 6.5 gallons to account for hop absorption

OG 1.065
74 IBU
WLP 001
149 Mash Temp
FG 1.009

2 Row - 56.3%
White Wheat Malt - 31.3%
Red X Malt - 12.5%

1.10 oz Magnum - 60min

2 oz Citra - 15 min

2 oz Citra - 0 Min

Cooled to 175 and hop stand for 30 min.

Here is where I decided to really try something new after reading about Commerical Dry hopping amounts, No idea how they scaled but I thought it would be fun to try A LOT

12 oz Citra Dry Hop for 3 days - One Charge because life got in the way

Kegged it a few days ago and my god its pretty good. The bitterness is nice and soft and it looks like orange juice after the dry hopping. Maybe its the amount of wheat, or maybe the massive dry hop or a combo of both but it really tastes like a East Coast IPA and I even used WLP001, next time I will try Conan. My water profile is much softer than I usually do for IPAs but not as soft as some of the profiles I have seen in this thread so there is more wiggle room there. I am not a fan of oats so I am thrilled it turned out somewhat pillowy without resorting to using them. I know my beer isnt hard evidence or anything but I thought I would share anyways. 12 oz dry hop seems to be working for me...perhaps a couple of ounces are wasted but I like it much more than my previous 4 to 6oz dry hop. Also the head looks like a nitro head and the bubbles feel smaller too. I need to brew some more cause this will not last long.

 

[gotbags-10]

Dang sir! 12 oz dry hop. Curious if you tried it again and split it between primary and secondary. Deff more work but like you said some of that was probably wasted.

 

[bbohanon]

I am fixing to drop in about 7 oz of Citra in batch for dry hop that I named 'Experimental #19' that I used all my mentioned recommendations and if it turns out as good as I am thinking (and smelling that) it will, I will share pics, water prof, technique and recipe in about 3 weeks.

:fro:

 

[lilbova3]

Love all the info, gonna give this all a try on my next IPA and think about putting some of this info in on a stout to help get a silky, velvety, pillowy mouthfeel.

 

[rideincircles]

Recent article from Shaun indicates that we may be on our own trying to recreate what he has accomplished.

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/01/sitting-down-with-shaun-hill-of-hill-farmstead.html

 

[Callacave]

Good article. He's always left us on our own to create what he has done. I think a lot of strides have been made here to get close.

As long as he keeps making the best beer in the country and possibly world, I'll be happy to continue to make trips up there to enjoy his stuff, and try to create something that is worthy of being as good as his beers.

Some people think he can be an ass, but I think he's an interesting person. I think it takes someone a little off kilter/different like him to make something that's so damn good.

 

[Braufessor]

Thanks for posting the article..... always interesting to read/listen to what these guys have to say.

I finally got around to posting my current recipe/process in the recipe section. I am pretty content, at least for now, with where it as arrived. I will update the recipe if I find something new that seems to improve the beer. Basically, wanted to get it posted in one spot so it is easier to refer to in this (or other discussions).

So, here is the link to my current favorite version of this "type" of beer:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

 

[olotti]

Thanks for the article. I kind of agree with him on the sharing recipe thing. I mean if everyone knows your secrets then why search out his beer if you can come close and make your own but I do think it's cool when breweries post ingredients because even though they post them the magic is trying to find the right amounts and it may be more than just ingredients like their water profile or yeast strain too.

 

[lilbova3]

I have a dry hopping question and figuring out how to drop the dry hops. I'm not a fan of throwing them in a bag since I use a carboy to ferment and dry hop in. We've come to the conclusion to not cold crash because we want some of the yeast still around and to keep the murkiness of the beer. So what would be the best way to get rid of the hops so I don't siphon them into my bottling bucket? Will cold crashing for a few days still be ok to just drop the pellets but won't drop all of the haze and yeast?

 

[Braufessor]

You could use a stainless mesh filter/tube (or stainless mesh sleeve of some sort). Dry hop in your fermenter. Then when it is time to rack, put this tube (sanitized) into your carboy, insert your racking cane and it should rack clean beer, leaving hops behind for the most part. Basically what I sort of do by using a dry hopping keg with a stainless mesh screen over the dip tube.....
Utah Biodiesel has all kinds of various screens and filters for brewing. This is the one that looks like it might work best for what you are talking about.
https://utahbiodieselsupply.com/images/customfabrication/BetterBottle6.5galB.jpg

 

[ejf063]

Okay, so I have completed a few batches using the higher Chloride to Sulfate ratio (2:1, I tired to replicate Braufessor's 'water model') and I have noticed a marked difference in the feel of the beer. I use distilled water and add salts and acids in an effort to gain as much flavor, silkiness, pillowy, etc., mouthfeel as I can. The bitterness still seems to have a little bite to it. I just recently had a Zombie Dust, whose IBU is 50. In the last 3 beers I did, I have been shooting for them to have an IBU of 50 as well. Mine seem to bitter a bit more..... firm.
What would happen say, if gypsum was cut out of the salt addition altogether? Has anyone done this? Gypsum 'enhances' bitterness... it doesn't create it. the carbonation adds a bite which adds to the bitterness effect so maybe it would balance an otherwise cloying effect.
Curios to know what people think of this.
Thanks.

 

[Braufessor]

Okay, so I have completed a few batches using the higher Chloride to Sulfate ratio (2:1, I tired to replicate Braufessor's 'water model') and I have noticed a marked difference in the feel of the beer. I use distilled water and add salts and acids in an effort to gain as much flavor, silkiness, pillowy, etc., mouthfeel as I can. The bitterness still seems to have a little bite to it. I just recently had a Zombie Dust, whose IBU is 50. In the last 3 beers I did, I have been shooting for them to have an IBU of 50 as well. Mine seem to bitter a bit more..... firm.
What would happen say, if gypsum was cut out of the salt addition altogether? Has anyone done this? Gypsum 'enhances' bitterness... it doesn't create it. the carbonation adds a bite which adds to the bitterness effect so maybe it would balance an otherwise cloying effect.
Curios to know what people think of this.
Thanks.

I have thought about doing that - but just haven't. You absolutely can cut the gypsum/sulfate out of a hoppy beer and have it taste great - Bohemian Pilsner is commonly brewed with no sulfate. It rounds out the bitterness of a relatively highly hopped lager.
Go for it and see what you think. If I have learned one thing it is that you don't know if you don't try. Worst case scenario is you find out you liked one version more than another one. It certainly would not result in "bad" beer. My guess is that it would further enhance the fullness/roundedness of the beer. On a potential down side, I think the worst outcome is that you might possibly find that the hops become more muted than you prefer in an IPA.

 

[ejf063]

I think the worst outcome is that you might possibly find that the hops become more muted than you prefer in an IPA.

Now that would be a gigantic downside.

 

[Braufessor]

oh - I don't think it would be a "gigantic" downside. If the beer is a good beer to start with, swinging chloride and gypsum to various levels is not going to make it a bad beer. It will make it a different beer. Now, maybe you prefer one more and another less - but, I think both are still good beers. Plus you learn something for future batches and your personal tastes.

On the flip side - if a beer is bad - adjusting sulfate and chloride is never going to make it "great" more than likely.

Also might need to hop at higher rates for the "rounded hoppiness" to come through at the levels you want in a beer with high chloride and no sulfate.

I will probably try it at some point when I get a chance, but that won't be in the upcoming couple months. I don't think it is a bad idea to try it on a beer you have already brewed and a beer you like.