Accidently mixed grains

[Patirck]

I am going to try my first all grain batch this weekend and I may have already screwed it up. When buying the grains, mixed them all together, then after looking at the recipe, I realized that I was supposed to mash the dark grains for the last 45 minutes versus the 75 minutes for the rest of them. I asked the LHBS where I bought the grains and he said it would probably make it a bit more bitter. The recipe is for a chocolate coffee sweet stout. Should I go ahead and make this as mixed or should I not waste the hops/yeast on it? I know it will end up being beer but if it is going to taste like crap I would rather just get another batch of grains.

The recipe is from tastybrew and I am adding 16 oz of brewed coffee for the last 10 minutes of the boil - http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/203

Recipe Details
Tasting Notes great, might use more cocoa powder next time. slightly sweet upon sipping with bitterness and roast coming through in finish.
Boil Volume 7.00 gallons
Boil Time 60 minutes
Batch Size 5.00 gallons
Yeast white labs english ale (75% app. attenuation)
Primary Fermentation plastic 5 days
Secondary Fermentation glass 1 week

Procedure one step infusion at 150 degrees for 1 hour 15 minutes, add all dark malts after 30 minutes

Style Comparison
Low High
OG 1.035 1.060 1.066
FG 1.010 1.020 1.022
IBU 20 43 40
SRM 50 35+
ABV 3 5.20 5.6


Fermentables
% Weight Weight (lbs) Grain Note Gravity Points Color
65.2 % 7.50 American Two-row Pale 41.6 1.8
8.7 % 1.00 Roasted Barley 45 min in mash 4.4 450.0
8.7 % 1.00 Flaked Barley 4.8 2.2
6.5 % 0.75 American Chocolate 3.3 350.0
4.3 % 0.50 CaraPils 2.5 1.8
4.3 % 0.50 American Crystal 80L 2.6 80.0
2.2 % 0.25 Black Patent 45 min in mash 1.1 500.0
11.50 60.2

Hops
% Wt Weight (oz) Hop Note Form AA% AAU Boil Time Utilization IBU
80.0 % 2.00 Fuggles Whole/Plug 5.1 10.2 60 0.246 37.6
10.0 % 0.25 Cascade Whole/Plug 6.6 1.7 20 0.149 3.7
10.0 % 0.25 Cascade Whole/Plug 6.6 1.7 5 0.049 1.2
2.50 43.0

Miscellaneous Ingredients
Weight/Units Name Notes
1/2 cup
16 oz cocoa powder
brewed coffee last 20 min of boil
last 10 min of boil

 

[jdp]

Make it, then make another batch in a week or two, then in a couple months, taste them both and see which you like better. That way you will also be able to tell the difference in taste and will be able to make adjustments in future recipies.

 

[passedpawn]

Definitely don't worry. I'm having trouble understanding how the extra 30 minutes is going to have a negative effect on the dark malts. I've never mashed one grain differently than the other in any beer I've ever made.

Maybe I learn something new here today.

 

[WAdamC]

definitely DO NOT waste your time on that batch. Let me know if you still you still have the grain. I can PM you my address, and you can send it to me. I'll make sure It is disposed of safely.

 

[bigjoe]

Just brew it.

I've talked with a few who only stick in specialty grains the last 15 minutes. Supposed to make the beer more clear. I'm thinking about trying it just to see. I'm curious how it might effect the pH. Also with beers that are dark to begin with I'm not sure why it would matter.

 

[Patirck]

OK - so it looks like the advice is to go ahead and make it or send the 11.5 pounds of grain to some guy in Iowa. I guess I'll make it!

 

[joekerr1]

Or you could send it to me I need to test my new IC and MLT this weekend.

 

[MikeG]

I have never not had my grains mixed before mashing, that's the way every HBS has shipped it to me (mostly BrewmastersWarehouse) as they mix them together before milling then packaging.

 

[ksbrain]

I never heard of mashing some of the grains for only part of the mash time. Actually, I would think that adding a bunch of grain late in the mash would mess up both your mash temperature and potentially your mash pH. You should be totally fine mashing them all at the same time.

 

[Patirck]

Or you could send it to me I need to test my new IC and MLT this weekend.

This is my first use of my new 10 gallon MLT as well. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Revvy]

I've never seen a recipe that called for mashing some grains seperately, ALL my grains go into the mashtun at the same time. That's why the lhbs mixed them together, they more than likely have never come across a recipe like that either. There is cereal mashing, but that's not what this recipe is talking about.

 

[jpsloan]

I've seen this called out in CDA recipes... primarily to try to impart the color of the dark grains while minimizing the flavor impact. Dehusked grains can help to cut down on harshness.

I've also seen recipes where the black grains are steeped separately and the tea from that steep is added to the kettle prior to boiling.

 

[remilard]

I actually have heard of mashing grains separately, believe it or not. For one it happens every time a cereal mash is performed but that is for a different reason.

Adding roasted grains towards the end of the mash is common when people want mostly color for them. Usually they would go right at the end of the mash maybe just for the vorlauf and sparge. Will that lower the pH? Yeah, but not much unless you are using inordinate amounts of roasted grain and who cares as conversion is done and you no longer require enzymatic activity.

George Fix wrote about holding back crystal and roasted malts and adding them with water infusions in step mashing so the journey from thick to thin mash would not be as extreme. This is probably the most useful application as half a pound of roast barley in a 5 gallon batch does not have nearly the impact on pH that people think it does.

Finally, adding roasted malts at the end is sometimes advocated as a way to deal with pH issues.

In any case, you aren't really mashing crystal malt and roast malt anyway. They have no enzymes and no starch to convert.

Without reading the recipe above I would guess that the intention is along the lines of the first example above, to extract a lot of color and some roast character without too much roast character. If this is the intention, I think cold steeping of grain is a superior solution. I would also prefer to simply use less roast malt and color the beer with sinimar.

 

[trashman]

Honestly I would research the coffee boil more than the seperate grain additions. Everything I have read and heard is that you'll get a better-less bitter coffee flavor by doing a cold steep with it instead of boiling it at all.
The only time I have used coffee (in a stout) I boiled it for the last 10 mins or so. I think it sort of took away from the beer. Thats when I researched it a little and most reccomend to add it into secondary or to cold steep it separate and add it before bottling. Not as bitter and burnt tasting.
Since its a dark beer, and clarity is not as imortantant as a lighter one, I would mash the grain all at once and boil a little irish moss and not look back.

 

[remilard]

Honestly I would research the coffee boil more than the seperate grain additions. Everything I have read and heard is that you'll get a better-less bitter coffee flavor by doing a cold steep with it instead of boiling it at all.
The only time I have used coffee (in a stout) I boiled it for the last 10 mins or so. I think it sort of took away from the beer. Thats when I researched it a little and most reccomend to add it into secondary or to cold steep it separate and add it before bottling. Not as bitter and burnt tasting.
Since its a dark beer, and clarity is not as imortantant as a lighter one, I would mash the grain all at once and boil a little irish moss and not look back.

Cold steeping coffee has the same advantages (less harsh) and disadvantages (you have to use more of it) as cold steeping roasted grains. It is interested that cold steeping coffee is very popular and cold steeping roasted grains is not.

 

[choptop]

definitely DO NOT waste your time on that batch. Let me know if you still you still have the grain. I can PM you my address, and you can send it to me. I'll make sure It is disposed of safely.

That joke never gets old.

 

[Patirck]

Cold steeping coffee has the same advantages (less harsh) and disadvantages (you have to use more of it) as cold steeping roasted grains. It is interested that cold steeping coffee is very popular and cold steeping roasted grains is not.

What is cold steeping?

 

[remilard]

What is cold steeping?

http://hbd.org/clubs/cascade/public_html/brewing/index.html

 

[malkore]

I've made beers where the chocolate malt or black patent is added at the end of the mash. Its always a very very small amount, like 2 ounces, and the reason you barely let it mash is because you want the color, and just a hint of the flavor and aroma. the really dark malts can quickly overpower the beer, giving you some quasi-bastardized porter/stout flavors.

I know I made an Irish Red Ale this way, with roasted barley used at the end of the mast to give the ruby red color, but not a lot of flavor.

So I can see why mashing for the full period unlike the recipe intended would indeed lend more of those dark roasted flavors. I wouldn't say 'it'll be bad', just not what the recipe's author aimed for.

 

[Patirck]

I kegged about 5 gallons of this today. I had a taste as well. It is a bit more bitter than I would have liked - not hoppy bitter but almost burnt bitter. Since this is my first AG brew, is there possibly something I did wrong here? I also added about 12 oz of kahlua in the keg with the beer - this certainly helped sweeten it a bit but I still get a slightly burnt tasts - the aftertaste is great and after it carbs up a bit I'm sure it may settle down a bit.

Another note - the yeast cake was easily an inch and a half thick - is this normal?

My final gravity was 1.012 which makes it about 5.4% not including the kahlua (I measured before I kegged it).

 

[944play]

Its always a very very small amount, like 2 ounces, and the reason you barely let it mash is because you want the color, and just a hint of the flavor and aroma.

Another reason is to keep the mash pH from dropping too far from the acidity of roasted grain, so you can use soft water in a dark beer.