About those chocolate malts, or, OMG what have you done?

[Chadwick]

I batched together another ale (5.5 gallon batch) which I planned on making a very dark ale. I used a pound of carmel crystal malt, and another pound of chocolate (debittered) crystal malt. In the absence of having them crushed, I put them through a light wirl in the coffee grinder. I admit, they where VERY crushed to say the least. None-the-less, into the bag and pot they went (1 gallon pure ozmosis water). I boiled the hell out of them for 30 minutes and removed the bag. I didn't squeeze the bag, I just let it drip drain for 10 minutes. I skimmed most of the gunk from the near boil over off the sides and then moved on to adding more water and my DME (6 pounds dark, One pound light) and 3 pounds corn sugar and hops. Lots of hops. Mostly Glacier (1 oz Cascade at 60min, 4 oz Glacier throughout to end).

I tasted the wort after taking a gravity reading at the end of the boil and it was bitter. Very bitter. I guess those chocolate cystal malts are to be used sparingly. Oh well, I'm determined not to allow this batch to go unappreciated. Second day in the fermenter I added another 2 oz of Glacier.

I'll hop it to hell and back and drink it with a smile, even if I have to force it.

Does anyone have any pointers on using chocolate malts? Next time I won't use a pound. It's still in the fermenter. I'm giving this one at least 4 weeks in there before I bottle.

 

[stpug]

Boiling is not the right method most times especially with pulverized grain husk. If you boiled in a decent amount of plain water then you very likely extracted lots of tannins which would give an astringent quality to the brew.

 

[fbold1]

St. Pug is right, don't boil em, steep em, 170 degrees max, 150 degrees fine and don't use a COFFEE GRINDER!!

 

[Chadwick]

Ok, thanks guys. Lesson learned.

Now that we know that this batch is rich in astringent tannens. What offerings would be suggested to make it interesting or even tolerable? Is there something that can be added? A flavoring perhaps? I'm shooting in the dark here. I'm going to drink this whatever it becomes. I just want to do it with the least amount of pain possible. I'm ok with a bit of bitter. My palet is adaptable. Call it ego, call it whatever. I'm dedicated to drinking the outcome. Any suggestions are welcome.

 

[swackattack]

Maybe some cacao nibs?

 

[Chromebrew]

Hey Chadwick, was this a recipe or were you exploring with some ingredients (something i do all the time) ? Basically what the other guys said about the steeping grains. 170 will do you right on those. Also, thats a lot of hops and a lot of sugar! Thats gonna give you a serious buzz and a serious bite! Id tone those down next time around, but thats just me

 

[stpug]

I've done a little looking and nothing concrete popped out at me, however I did get a few ideas for you to look into a little bit more. It seems that tannin astringency is a fairly broad term and "a tannin" takes on many different shapes and sizes. What exact kind of tannin you'd be dealing with is a mystery to me at this point. On the bright side, it seems like there is some hope in making your brew even more tolerable than it is right now if you're willing to put in a little time and process.

I'm reading that cold conditioning by itself can help precipitate out tannins from the brew. This is an easy process to attempt if you have a freezer or fridge in which you can control the temperature. Essentially this is just an extended cold crashing at really low temperatures (i.e. right around freezing).

Another option, or additional option, is the use of egg whites as a fining agent. This is something that's not uncommon in the brewing/wine making world. I've never had a need to use this but I suspect the process is something as simple as: egg whites mixed in some distilled water and then swirled into your brew and allowed to settle. The final step being to transfer your brew off of the sediment. Some fining agents work better or worse with cold temperatures so it would be worth looking to determine if you could do a combo of egg white fining and cold conditioning.

Another option, or additional option, is the use of gelatin as a fining agent. This would be a process very similar to egg whites and is used fairly frequently by brewing on this board. Again, gelatin has the potential to help precipitate out some tannins and astringency, as well as proteins.

The great part of all of these methods are that they are common in the brewing world and helpful for producing clear beer. The bad part is that you have the potential of precipitating out compounds that contribute to mouthfeel/body, bitterness, flavors, and other favorables. If it were me, I would do more research on several common fining agents and determine which seems like it has the best potential of helping with astringency, and combine it with cold conditioning.

I have never used cocoa nibs but I know that unsweetened cocoa is very bitter. Something in me says that adding a bitter ingredient to already high astringency might make things worse. Then again, intuition doesn't always work out and it might actually help to "mask" an astringent character.

 

[Chromebrew]

Not be an ass, but i don't think finings will rescue this super dry, 16abv - 100ibu husk beer. The only thing that could help is bottle conditioning. Id chalk this one up to a learning experience, in my opinion, and those are always a good thing.

 

[mjaadland]

My self I would bottle condition for a long time say close to a year. Brew a nice low hoped medium body pail with some crystal and Munich, a nice English yeast, and blend them for black and tans, who knows? That is what I love about this hobby.

 

[Matt3989]

Maybe some cacao nibs?

Cacao nibs are naturally bitter. So don't use them.

Maybe toss in a vanilla bean (soaked in vodka and sliced down the length), I use this method to even out the bitter flavors when making a chocolate beer. Although idk how it would taste in heavily hopped beer.

I wouldn't use gelatin, it's my understanding that tannins are negatively charged (hence you get chill haze when negatively charged tannins combine with positively charged proteins to and precipitate out. Gelatin is negatively charged and meant to remove proteins. Maybe look for a positively charged finning agent? Sparkloid maybe? Sorry, I'm on my phone and don't feel like looking up which ones are which.

I'm not an expert, so that's pretty much just an educated guess.

I wouldn't do an extended cold crash, as tannins tend to participate out, and then eventually dissolve back into the solution (in the chill haze case at least). I would age it in the fermenter for an extra week or two, then do a normal cold crash. Also, it will probably improve with time in bottles, taste one every now and then to make sure though

Don't count this beer out just yet, you may not have extracted as much astringency as you thing, you can boil grains without extracting tannins as long as your Ph is low (decoction mashes)...the RO water actually probably did more harm than good in this case. The fine crush probably didn't help you either.... But who knows. Time is probably your best fix.

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

I'd let this one ferment out all the while having a lighter version of something that would be good mixed with such a dark bitter beer fermenting away right alongside it. After they both ferment out, spend an evening mixing different ratios and come up with something that can balance. Your lighter version should be a light, barely hopped, malty sweet beer to play well against the demon brew you have here.

 

[Chadwick]

I thought it had stopped fermenting 3 days ago. This morning it took off again bubbling in the airlock. What a surprise! I'm going to give this one at least 4 weeks before I even crack the lid to check it.

The biggest surprise is that the temperature didn't raise or anything. It just took off again like magic. Pretty neat.

As for a second beer to brew with the purpose of mixing with this one, what sort of beer would be best? I'm thinking along the lines of an extra light DME batch something like this:

9 pounds extra light DME
2 ounces of Glacier hops. 1 at 30min, 1 at 5min.
5.5 gallon brew
Yeast type?

 

[FourSeasonAngler]

That sounds fine. Think Black n' Tan. Most of your malt flavor will come from your chocolate beer, so make your light beer where the hops and any other flavor components come from. If your choc. beer ends up drying out, no need to dry out the light beer as well.

 

[shelly_belly]

Gelatin would be my choice here. Gelatin removes a quantity of tannin roughly equal to its own weight.

 

[Chadwick]

Took a gravity reading yesterday. 1.014 is what I measured. Took a taste too. Remarkably, the bitter is gone! Or masked by the huge amount of Glacier hops I put in it...either way, it's good! It tasted very malty, hoppy, and with a bit of chocolate on the aftertaste. I think I got lucky on this one. I'll bottle this weekend if the gravity doesn't drop any further by Sunday.