A little guidance

[hjblwme]

So I am new here but have brewed several times before. My previous brews have been under the supervision of my LHBS operator as a “brew on premise”. The lil woman got me equipment to brew at home for Christmas (she’s a keeper).

I brewed this recipe last year and it turned out wonderfully and has aged even better. Under my desire and my shopkeepers guidance we made a small change that I will describe later. This is an extract with specialty grains recipe.

The recipe is as follows for a 5 gal batch;
Initial boil was almost 6 gal starting water and going into fermenter I was just a hair above 5.
1 lb Cherrywood Smoked Malt
12 oz Carafa 1
8 oz Chocolate Malt
8 oz Flaked Oats
8 oz Malted Oats
4 oz Flaked Barley
4 oz Roasted Barley
8 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt 60L
1 lb Dark DME @ boil
6.6 lb Pale Liquid Extract
.75 oz Magnum @ 60
.25 oz East Kent Goldings @ 15
1 lb Lactose @ 15
1 pk SafAle S-04

This time around we added 2oz cocoa nibs soaked in 2oz bourbon to be added after primary (kreuesen drop).

Fermentation has been in a 7.9 gal Fastferment conical.

After the kreuesen dropped I took the ball off and cleaned the sediment. Sanitized and put the ball back on, dumped the cocoa and bourbon in and let it go.

This was boiled on 1-05-2020
Wort gravity was 1.075 after cooling
Yeast was pitched at about 68 F
Recipe called for the wort to be at 1.072
And estimated final to be at 1.019

First night was little to no activity in airlock
Second and third evenings was steady rapid activity in the airlock
Fourth and so on have slowed to very little in airlock. Maybe every 30 seconds now.

Cocoa nibs and bourbon were added on 01-10-2020. Clear top on liquid (no signs of kreuesen).

Now since I am having such slow airlock activity I figured I would check progress. Plus I’m skipping town for the weekend.

Gravity on 1-14-2020 was 1.030
Gravity on 1-16-2020 was 1.029 ish

When I did this brew without cocoa or bourbon I didn’t know the numbers as it was supervised by someone who knew what they were doing and they told me when to come bottle. That brew came out great and aged even better. But the bottled beer is slightly over carbonated, meaning that the caps have bulged and are holding and when opened you run a good chance of commuting some beer abuse. A pour must be done cautiously or you will end up with massive head.

Beer man says that we probably got some extra fermentation in the bottle causing the minor over carbonation.

So the big question is should I begin to think about bottling this latest batch or should I keep waiting another week?

Sorry for the novel.

ETA: temps have been 68-70 before kreuesen drop and 66 after. Only monitored not controlled.

 

[bgmac]

I would let it ride for 3 weeks. 2 is ok, but 3 will clean it up a little more. You still have airlock activity and fermentation is not done yet. Wait a minimum of 2 weeks before transferring off the yeast cake. 3 weeks will ensure that fermentation is complete.

 

[ncbrewer]

I wait 16 days after brew day and take a gravity sample. Two days later I take another sample. If gravity is stable, I bottle. (It almost always is.) If not stable, I wait at least a week and repeat. It's the only sure way to know if fermentation is complete. I use a narrow range bottling hydrometer, which I recommend. If using a standard hydrometer, wait 4 days between samples.

Good luck and welcome to HBT.

Edit: Use caution when handling those overcarbonated bottles. They could explode.

 

[hjblwme]

One of my other worries is that I somehow got most of the yeast when I emptied the trub/sediment. Or am I just being impatient and worrisome?

As for the overcarbed bottles. I can depress the “button” with my thumb.

 

[Jayjay1976]

First of all, it all sounds like a very very good tasting recipe, but I see TEN fermentables. Not knocking your proven winner, but generally speaking you should strive to simplify this recipe as your skills progress. If you can't articulate what each item brings to the table, you should consider eliminating some of them. But don't bother with that now, just stick to what's working.

Commercial breweries can't justify the cost of juggling all of those ingredients, and the best recipes are also efficient ones. The best flavors come from your skill as a brewer and no specialty grain can provide the flavor of experience.

For now brew on friend and remember, RDWHAHB!

 

[AJinJacksonville]

Admittedly, over the years I have gotten lazy with hydrometer checks (both for OG and FG). I'm pretty methodical with my brewing process, and have found the brewing to be overall consistent with no off-flavors/bottle bombs/etc. That being said, as the other responses indicate 1) there is no harm in letting it sit (sometimes I'll forget about the fermenter and end up bottling or kegging weeks later with no ill effect and 2) when in doubt, take a reading and see if you're hitting your numbers and/or are remaining stable with FG.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've just started kegging and already realize how much less critical it is to track the FG. Not quite finished out but I've got time to keg?? Free carbonation! Turned out a bit dryer than I intended? Dose some lactose! Hops aren't popping like they should?? KEG HOPS TABLE SIX!!

 

[S-Met]

You still have airlock activity and fermentation is not done yet

Misnomer. Airlock active only means there is a pressure difference. As fermentation slows, so does exothermic activity (liquid cools). I think it's Boyle's law, not 100%.
Short version: as temps cool and fermentation slows the rate gas escapes also slows showing reduced airlock activity. An equilibrium can occur where pressure and temperature can balance between inside and outside of the fermenter meaning fermentation can occur without disrupting the airlock. Add a minor gap in a seal and gas may escape without disruption to the airlock.

Alternatively fermentation may be completed but suspended or trapped co2 can release showing lingering airlock activity.

The only reliable measurement is stable gravity readings.

 

[IslandLizard]

1 lb Cherrywood Smoked Malt
8 oz Flaked Oats
8 oz Malted Oats
4 oz Flaked Barley

Your recipe looks yummy!

If you're looking for improvements, the malts and adjuncts I quoted really need to be mashed, not just steeped.

The 8 oz of malted oats can convert itself with a diastatic power (DP) of around 20, not sure it can convert much more. The pound of smoked malt has a DP of 140. 160/4.25 lbs = 37.6 °L. That's barely enough to convert the whole grain bill. Adding a pound of milled 2-row will help getting it out of the margin.

With the extra 2-row you can mash all your malts, grains and flaked goods together and mash at 152-154F for an hour to 90'. It will change your recipe somewhat. But since the mash will convert grain starches to fermentable sugars, you can probably forego the pound of DME. Then add some additional chocolate malt to compensate for the color in the DME.

 

[hjblwme]

Your recipe looks yummy!

If you're looking for improvements, the malts and adjuncts I quoted really need to be mashed, not just steeped.

The 8 oz of malted oats can convert itself with a diastatic power (DP) of around 20, not sure it can convert much more. The pound of smoked malt has a DP of 140. 160/4.25 lbs = 37.6 °L. That's barely enough to convert the whole grain bill. Adding a pound of milled 2-row will help getting it out of the margin.

With the extra 2-row you can mash all your malts, grains and flaked goods together and mash at 152-154F for an hour to 90'. It will change your recipe somewhat. But since the mash will convert grain starches to fermentable sugars, you can probably forego the pound of DME. Then add some additional chocolate malt to compensate for the color in the DME.

It is absolutely fabulous in my opinion. It was an experiment when I smelled the cherry smoked malt. I thought they were wonderful and reminded me of the smell of my smoker when I open it. So I asked my LHBS if there was a way to use them in a stout. He took a recipe of his and modified it.

The flavor of cherry comes through and is awesome. The smoke flavor is more of a note and subtle.

As for the rest of your statement, most of it is above the level of where I am at right now. I understand the concept but the technical stuff behind it I am looking forward to learning.

 

[IslandLizard]

As for the rest of your statement, most of it is above the level of where I am at right now. I understand the concept but the technical stuff behind it I am looking forward to learning.

Absolutely! Little reason to change a winning team.

There are so many extract recipes out there using flaked goods for steeping, even in fairly large percentages. From a brewer's perspective they can't add their value unless mashed.
Your recipe has only relatively small amounts of flaked goods in there (1 pound total) but the 2 malts (1.5 pounds) can't give much, if any of their extraction potential either. Hopefully all the smoky flavors and aromas are released completely in the steep.

The difference between steeping and (mini)mashing is so small, it's surprisingly easy to make the switch.* It's very similar to steeping, just with more exacting control over 4 parameters: temperature, time, volume, and pH. The first 3 are the easiest, the 4th can be "winged" or calculated (estimated), and even if it's off by quite a bit, chances are you wouldn't even notice.

In your recipe, alternatively to (mini)mashing all the grain and adjuncts, you could just mini mash the Smoked Malt, Malted Oats, and all the flaked goods together, leaving out the darker roasts. Those can be steeped, separately (in your kettle) while doing the mini mash in a (large) pot. That makes it even easier. No need to add 2-row in that case. Depending on your efficiency, you may adjust the DME to get to your intended OG.

* I was doing 1-2 gallon mini mashes for a long time before I went all grain. I put the pot in a 150-160F prewarmed, but turned-off oven to keep temps more stable. Lautered through a sieve. Sparged (rinsed) twice. All while heating the kettle to a boil.

 

[hjblwme]

@IslandLizard
So I reread everything you put in your last post.

Which got me to thinking and asking more questions. Plus I was sampling this last brew. Which has been bottled now for 10 days. I had an odd number of bottles. We can’t have that.

I am already getting some decent carbonation in it and the flavor is absolutely amazing to me. I am not sure that I have ever had a stout that is this good. Even the lil woman is liking it, and she is a bud light drinker.

In your last paragraph you said about mashing the grains and getting their full potential. Then about hitting my OG number. My question comes to this. If I were to mash those and get the sugars out of them that would bring this closer to a “true imperial” then it already is? Also early testing is leading me to believe that I may also have the same problem as last time where the carbonation is slightly high.

By high carbonation I mean smaller creamier bubbles, where I am used to larger drier bubbles. If that makes sense.

Just seeking on how I may improve something that is pretty darn close to perfect.

 

[IslandLizard]

So I reread everything you put in your last post of the thread “A Little Guidance”.

Really glad to hear your beer is wonderful.

I hope my writing made enough sense. The mashing vs. the steeping mostly, in this context.
Since your grain bill included a pound of diastatic (smoked) malt, depending on your steeping method, you may have had some conversion, adding extra sugars to the brew.

Currently you don't have a huge boatload of grains in there that can be converted, thus yielding extra fermentables. E.g., the dark roasted ones don't, but the oats and flaked ones (I mentioned before) do. Together with an extra 2# of 2-row you should gain another 4# x ~30ppg = ~120 ppg (points per pound per gallon). In 5 gals that's ~120/5 = ~24 ppg. So you'd boost your OG from 1.075 to 1.090-1.100. That definitely brings it from the lower end right into the middle of the Imperial Stout class:
http://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/20/20C/

There may be some fermentables left in your beer that are slowly being consumed during bottle conditioning, therefore creating a slightly higher carbonation than would be expected from the priming sugar you added. As long as it doesn't go over the top and create bottle bombs, enjoy the extra fizz and creamy foam.

Did you weigh the priming sugar out?

 

[hjblwme]

Makes some sense to me. Although some of it is slightly above my experience level right now.

As far as steeping goes, it’s a water to 165 and steep for 20-30 min. Let that rest with no heat and then strain my bag over the pot as it heats to a boil. Once I am getting close to a boil I pull it off and set it in a pot still in the strainer. Add my extracts and once they are added I pour the extra “juice” into the kettle.

As for carbonation, I haven’t had any “bombs” as of yet. The worst one that I had sounded like a champagne cork and I might get a slow rising bottle head that comes out.

Priming sugar is a package that my LHBS already has measured. I was actually thinking that I may want to start measuring out from that based upon the common calculators.

 

[IslandLizard]

The mash is performed at lower temps, 148-158F and volume is a bit more controlled. You don't want to mash 4# of grain in 6 gallons of water.

The champagne cork pop and sound effect, usually followed by a gusher, is a sign of over-carbonation. Either due to too much or incompletely mixed/dissolved priming sugar, not fully-attenuated beer, or (an unintended) infection (e.g, dirty bottles) or a combination.
Keep those bottles in a place where they can't cause damage if they would explode. And keep checking. Handle armed with goggles/face mask, long sleeves, and heavy gloves. Open carefully above sink or tub. Not exaggerating here.

 

[hjblwme]

So I’m trying to figure this out.

Over carbonation/bottle bombs can be caused by three things. Incomplete fermentation upon bottling, an infection, and too much priming sugar.

The batch that I have mostly recycled (consumed) was brewed under supervision of a seasoned brewer and was basically his recipe. A soft pour to the glass is required. I don’t know the numbers on it pre and post fermentation so I can’t testify to those. But I know it was 17 days after brewing that it was bottled. Infection is not an issue, unless it’s not been picked up by several more seasoned brewers that have tried it. Too much sugar is possible as I don’t know exactly how much was used.

This latest batch with a slightly modified recipe was brewed and monitored by me. Started out at 1.075 and at 14 days had fermented to 1.029. At 18 days was at 1.028 and 21 days was at 1.028 again.

Recipe calls for 3.43 oz of priming sugar.

How much “extra” priming sugar would have to be used in order to get bottle bombs provided that there is no infection? Or is it possible that fermentation was not complete the first time (yeast on vacation) and I may have the same (problem) with this batch?

 

[IslandLizard]

3.4 oz seems about right for a 5 gallon batch of Stout, if that's the amount you actually had.
How much beer did you actually have, leaving the fermenter trub behind? Or how much was racked into your bottling bucket?
That's the volume you should go by for calculating the amount of priming sugar, as well as the highest temp the beer's been at since fermentation completed (CO2 already in solution).

Not saying you got bottle bombs, or yet. Maybe a few bottles ended up with more priming sugar? I'd definitely treat them with respect until proven otherwise.

 

[hjblwme]

 

[NGD]

Adding to what IslandLizard said, occasionally you can get a gusher due to incomplete mixing of the priming sugar into the beer. One way you can usually tell is to grab a few bottles from different spots (assuming you stored them in order you filled them) and see if the carbonation level is similar. If some are low and others high then that was your issue. Otherwise it was more than likely a calculation error or infection.

Either way that recipe sounds great and once you get it dialed I thin

 

[hjblwme]

Adding to what IslandLizard said, occasionally you can get a gusher due to incomplete mixing of the priming sugar into the beer. One way you can usually tell is to grab a few bottles from different spots (assuming you stored them in order you filled them) and see if the carbonation level is similar. If some are low and others high then that was your issue. Otherwise it was more than likely a calculation error or infection.

Either way that recipe sounds great and once you get it dialed I thin

They are all the same on the old batch. This new batch is amazing (personal opinion). There doesn’t seem to be any problem yet. But it’s only been bottled for 24 days. I didn’t start to see any “issue” with my old batch until several months of aging down the road.

I am leaning towards just a bad calculation/early bottling. It was a brew on premise at my LHBS. So he has some motivation to get things out as soon as possible. Where the current one was left in the fermenter for three weeks.

Heck the Belgian “tripel” that I have going now at the house is still dropping. Albeit slowly 10 days later. Started at 1.071 and now at 1.005.