A few questions about properly measuring volume

[ClemTiger0408]

I was hoping I could get some feedback on how I take my volume readings.

I have a 10Gal kettle with volume markings on the inside that I put on and are very accurate.

I use a 0.08Gal water/lb grain absorption ratio and a 1.6Gal/Hr boil off rate (which fluctuates widely and is very annoying).

After mash is complete, I squeeze the bag and get the kettle volume to 7.1gallons (5.5 into fermenter + 1.6 boil off). I am not compensating for heat expansion. Should I be? If the kettle says 7.1Gal after mash, what should I use for pre-boil volume? 7.1 or take into account heat expansion?

Post-boil, I base the final volume off of the cooled wort in the kettle. I do not whirpool and leave material behind in the kettle, everything goes into fermenter. I found when I tried to whirlpool that it didn't really do anything, it didn't make a cone and just fell flat. When transferring to the fermenter, I don't know when to stop transferring the gunk. I've read the articles saying that excess trub in the fermenter doesn't make a major impact on the final beer so I just dump it all...

So, I'm making these numbers up, let's say an inch of trub in the fermenter is equal to .5 gallons of volume. When I get my "volume into primary" for efficiency calculations, should I account for the trub taking up volume? So, for example, if the volume in the kettle is exactly 5.5 gallons and I dump everything into primary, isn't the true volume something less than 5.5?

 

[hio3791]

I do all of my measurements at room temperature. If I need (for instance) 12.75 gal preboil (assuming I correctly accounted for absorption and MT losses) and I measure 13.25 gal at the start of the boil, I know heat expansion is approx 4% at boiling so I really have 12.75 gal.

You don't account for heat expansion. You just have to remember to adjust your readings if you take measurements at different temperatures.

For brew house efficiency, it's supposed to be total wort in fermenter. Wort in the kettle, hoses, pump, chiller are all losses in your system.

 

[ClemTiger0408]

For brew house efficiency, it's supposed to be total wort in fermenter. Wort in the kettle, hoses, pump, chiller are all losses in your system.

So, since I dump everything into the fermenter, might the BEST way to measure efficiency be adding volume markings to my fermenter and waiting a few days for the trub to compact to see my true volume?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

After mash is complete, I squeeze the bag and get the kettle volume to 7.1gallons (5.5 into fermenter + 1.6 boil off). I am not compensating for heat expansion. Should I be? If the kettle says 7.1Gal after mash, what should I use for pre-boil volume? 7.1 or take into account heat expansion?

I always compensate for thermal expansion. That's why I made my mash calculator do so automatically. 7.1 at mash temps becomes about 7.25 at boil. I measure using a metal ruler and use the volume of a cylinder

Post-boil, I base the final volume off of the cooled wort in the kettle. I do not whirpool and leave material behind in the kettle, everything goes into fermenter. I found when I tried to whirlpool that it didn't really do anything, it didn't make a cone and just fell flat. When transferring to the fermenter, I don't know when to stop transferring the gunk. I've read the articles saying that excess trub in the fermenter doesn't make a major impact on the final beer so I just dump it all...

Just transfer it all, allow for about 10% trub loss from fermenter. (want 5 gallons, put 5.5 into fermenter)

So, I'm making these numbers up, let's say an inch of trub in the fermenter is equal to .5 gallons of volume. When I get my "volume into primary" for efficiency calculations, should I account for the trub taking up volume? So, for example, if the volume in the kettle is exactly 5.5 gallons and I dump everything into primary, isn't the true volume something less than 5.5?

Volume into primary would be the 5.5, including trub, unless you leave it behind in kettle. Volume out of fermenter would be the 5.0 ish

 

[ClemTiger0408]

Volume into primary would be the 5.5, including trub, unless you leave it behind in kettle. Volume out of fermenter would be the 5.0 ish

So for the sake of an efficiency calculation, I should use 5 gallons instead of 5.5?

 

[pricelessbrewing]

So for the sake of an efficiency calculation, I should use 5 gallons instead of 5.5?

No, the brewhouse eff. is measured using the volume into the fermenter so should be 5.5

 

[MN_Jay]

No, the brewhouse eff. is measured using the volume into the fermenter so should be 5.5

I get what he's asking here since I've wondered the same thing. If you use 5.5 aren't you skewing the efficiency calculations since beersmith doesn't know that 1/2 gallon is trub, it assumes it's wort.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Probably, but it's sort of a traditional "that's just the way it is dag nab it" thing. If we started to correct for that nowadays, and not everyone did it the same way then your "brewhouse eff" would vary widely depending on what you assume the trub will take up.

You don't always know how much trub you're going to get, as it depends on the yeast as well as some other things.

 

[hio3791]

Actually, most applications I've seen account for fermenter losses. It is variable but a good starting point is about 0.5 gal. Knowing that, one can more accurately estimate needed post-boil volume.

I shoot for 5.5 gal in the fermenter, knowing I'll get 5 gal out. My postboil is closer to 6 gal as I lose approx 0.5 gal in the kettle, hoses, chiller, etc.

 

[TexasWine]

I get what he's asking here since I've wondered the same thing. If you use 5.5 aren't you skewing the efficiency calculations since beersmith doesn't know that 1/2 gallon is trub, it assumes it's wort.

I've wondered the same thing before. I think your real efficiency in making beer is how much you can package, either in bottles or kegs. Folks that dump everything into the fermenter after the boil, like me, will have a higher brew house efficiency than someone who leaves some behind in the kettle. But I end up with more gunk in the bottom of my fermenter and still only package ~5 gallons even though I put 6 in to ferment. In my opinion that would make our efficiencies the same.

Tradition aside, I think it would make more sense if we either talked about our ending kettle efficiency, after the boil but before any trub losses are accounted for, or we take it all the way to the bottle/keg, accounting for all losses. Brew house efficiency seems like this weird middle ground where we shouldn't really be comparing our numbers. But, as priceless points out, tradition seems to prevail at the moment.

 

[TexasWine]

Actually, most applications I've seen account for fermenter losses. It is variable but a good starting point is about 0.5 gal. Knowing that, one can more accurately estimate brew house efficiency.

I shoot for 5.5 gal in the fermenter, knowing I'll get 5 gal out. My postboil is closer to 6 gal as I lose approx 0.5 gal in the kettle, hoses, chiller, etc.

Agree that the software out there can account for fermenter losses, but to my knowledge fermenter losses are not used in finding brew house efficiency...

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-efficiency-chart/

 

[hio3791]

Agree that the software out there can account for fermenter losses, but to my knowledge fermenter losses are not used in finding brew house efficiency...

http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-efficiency-chart/

Thank you for clarifying. In my first post, I said BHE was based on volume into fermenter. What I said in my last post was misleading so I edited it to prevent futher confusion.

 

[ClemTiger0408]

Thanks for the discussion.

I am fine with "that's just the way everyone does it" answer, because that's where I wanted to be. My questioning came because I've noticed some people doing BIAB get higher efficiencies than I do despite using basically every discussed tactic on here to improve them. So I was wondering if I was somehow calculating my volume incorrectly, sounds like I am not.

My efficiencies aren't crazy low, I usually am between 70%-75%, which is certainly average around here. It just baffles me how people can do better. And when I make a higher gravity beer, it's those 70%'ers that really bug me.

 

[ArcLight]

Thanks for the discussion.

My efficiencies aren't crazy low, I usually am between 70%-75%, which is certainly average around here. It just baffles me how people can do better. And when I make a higher gravity beer, it's those 70%'ers that really bug me.

A very tight crush is important for higher efficiency. I have found a dunk sparge significantly improves efficiency as well, adding another 10-15% of fermenatbles.

For me, higher gravity BIAB brews will especially benefit from the dunk sparge.