3rd All Grain Batch Fail - Missed OG by 20 points on Orange APA

[JAnderson]

Help! Hoping you guys might be able to help me isolate what to correct after missing OG on my 3rd all grain batch this past weekend.

I was doing an Orange Cascade APA off the top 100 list from this site actually - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/cascades-orange-pale-ale.84558/

I plugged the recipe in BeerSmith and tweaked it a little to lower IBU's (they calculated higher than the recipe on the site) and used a little extra fresh orange zest. I was really pumped to brew this batch after already doing a Citra IPA and a Bavarian Heffeweizen on my cooler all grain setup (12gal mash cooler , 7 gal HLT cooler, 8 gal Megapot, Edelmetall burner). Both of those brews worked out great. I hit my targets on both and they fermented well and should be killer beers by the time they are done conditioning. Learned some things I wanted to improve - PH (use Brunwater instead of BS calc), sparge longer, etc.. I use distilled water and build my own profile.

Here's the steps I followed from Beersmith -

Cascade / Orange APA
American Pale Ale (18 B)

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 6.74 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 5.99 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 5.00 gal
Fermentation: Ale, Single Stage
Date: 19 Oct 2019
Equipment: 2019 All Grain - Large 12 Gal Cooler - 8 Gal Megapot - 7 Gal HLT
Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 78.4 %
Taste Rating: 30.0
Taste Notes:
Prepare for Brewing

• Create a yeast starter with 1.00 L of wort (3.38 oz dry malt extract)
• Clean and Prepare Brewing Equipment
• Total Water Needed: 8.39 gal
• Mash Water Acid: Brunwater calc 1.7 ml - Modified Pale Ale profile

8.31 gal Distilled Water Water 1 - -
Mash or Steep Grains
Mash Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
9 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 81.8 % 0.70 gal
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 9.1 % 0.08 gal
1 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 4 9.1 % 0.08 gal
Mash Steps
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 15.07 qt of water at 166.3 F 152.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 7.70 qt of water at 205.3 F 168.0 F 10 min

• Sparge Water Acid: None
• Fly sparge with 2.70 gal water at 168.0 F
• Add water to achieve boil volume of 6.74 gal
• Estimated pre-boil gravity is 1.048 SG

Boil Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 5 17.6 IBUs -
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 6 - -
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 11.6 IBUs -
2.50 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 8 - -
1.00 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 10.0 mins) Spice 9 - -
Steeped Hops
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min, 194.4 F Hop 10 3.3 IBUs -
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 10.0 min, 194.4 F Hop 11 3.3 IBUs -

• Estimated Post Boil Vol: 5.99 gal and Est Post Boil Gravity: 1.056 SG

Cool and Transfer Wort

• Cool wort to fermentation temperature
• Transfer wort to fermenter
• Add water if needed to achieve final volume of 5.50 gal

Pitch Yeast and Measure Gravity and Volume
Fermentation Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU Volume
1.0 pkg House (Imperial Yeast #A01) Yeast 12 - -

• Measure Actual Original Gravity _1.037_ (Target: 1.056 SG)
• Measure Actual Batch Volume __5.10__ (Target: 5.50 gal)

OG going into fermenter was 1.037! I did notice the wort was very light and clear and that proved that my efficiency was low as I expected.

I now realize I need to be taking gravity readings pre boil, and post boil to catch this sooner. I had the grains milled by Northern Brewer on purchase. They seemed okay. The Vienna and Crystal malt were prepackaged crushed, a coarser grind than the Maris Otter, but overall the crush seemed okay. However, I'm still not experienced in these details.

I mashed in and temp on my thermapen was 155-157. So i stirred and let it sit for 10-15 minutes or so until I was getting 152-153 readings then sealed it up for the 60 minutes. One thing I've been noticing is that the dial thermometer on the mash cooler is always way lower than my pen. It shows mid to upper 140's.. so its 10 degrees lower. I know the dial thermometers are not as accurate as digital so I always go by my thermapen.

I forgot to heat my sparge water before preparing the mash out water, so I let the mash sit for another 20 minutes or more while prepping that and the mash out water (brew day beers and visitors complicated things). So overall I probably mashed for 90 minutes rather than 60. I recirculated for a good 10 minutes, until the wort was very clear, then drained the mash down to an inch or two above the grain bed before starting the sparge.

I sparged for about 18-20 minutes total, trying to drag it as slowly as possible. This is one area I'm still confused on. When BS calculates only 2.7 gallons sparge. How can i possibly sparge for 45 mins or more as some people claim you should do?

My volumes were also fairly accurate. I'm always skeptical of the boil off estimations because I don't think I boil off that much, if any, in 60 minutes on my setup. I stopped running off the wort from the mash at 6.7ish gal in the kettle. Probably could have ran more all the way to 7 gallons in the kettle, but the grains were visible and mash was mostly drained.

I did notice the wort was very clear and light, but I just kept going with my steps. I took a PH sample about 20 minutes into the mash, cooled it and it read 5.25, 5.24, 5.23 on calibrated PH meter so I was good there.

Going into the fermenter the volumes were still pretty good. I was tipping my kettle to drain the last bit over the 5 gallon mark on the fermenter (the whirlfloc had really compacted the trub) and I could have maybe got all the way to the 5.5 gal mark if squeezed it all from the trub, but I called it good. This is when i took the sample from the top of the fermenter.

I know my first thoughts are - temps (is my thermometer correct), grain crush (not fine enough), volumes off (too much water).. any ideas where to start? Now I'm second guessing my process altogether.

I ended up pulling wort out, adding almost a pound of DME and boiling, then returning to the fermenter just to get the OG up to around 1.047 - 4.8 for a more respectable ABV. Bummer.

 

[Pappers_]

Another possibility (and the best/least problemmatic long-term if its the cause) would be the grain was misweighed - i.e. you used less grain than you intended. Did you weigh them before adding them or trust NB (which is probably what I would have done)?

Low OG is due to too much volume, too little grain/extract or low efficiency. Grind could impact efficiency, but twenty points would be extreme. As long as your mash temp is in the 147-158F range, its not going to impact your efficiency or OG - it may impact the fermentability of the wort, but not the gravity.

 

[JAnderson]

Another possibility (and the best/least problemmatic long-term if its the cause) would be the grain was misweighed - i.e. you used less grain than you intended. Did you weigh them before adding them or trust NB (which is probably what I would have done)?

Low OG is due to too much volume, too little grain/extract or low efficiency. Grind could impact efficiency, but twenty points would be extreme. As long as your mash temp is in the 147-158F range, its not going to impact your efficiency or OG - it may impact the fermentability of the wort, but not the gravity.

Yeah, I didn't actually weigh the grain myself. The crystal and vienna came in prepacked 1lb bags, but the Maris Otter seemed okay... but like you said I didn't even consider that. I will pay attention to this next time. Especially since my first two brews went so smooth.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[kevin58]

"I'm always skeptical of the boil off estimations because I don't think I boil off that much"

This statement leads me to believe that you haven't actually set up your own equipment profile. I would strongly suggest you do that... and mash profiles too... otherwise you will have issues like this pop up all the time. Even Brad Smith who created Beersmith suggests that you only use the profiles that come with the program as a convenient starting point for customizing your own.

This is a good tutorial...


And Marshall Schott from Brülosophy has a good one as well...


Question on your sparge... did the sparge water in your mash tun fall below the level of the grains? If you let your grains go dry they could have settled and created channeling which would prevent you from rinsing all the sugars. When I fly sparge I always put more in the HLT than I need and just sparge until I've hit my boil volume. All the while making sure there is water about 2 inches above the grain bed the whole time. You can change the mash volumes that Beersmith. You can change the water to grain ratio for mashing and the sparge volumes to suite your needs.

 

[JAnderson]

"I'm always skeptical of the boil off estimations because I don't think I boil off that much"

This statement leads me to believe that you haven't actually set up your own equipment profile. I would strongly suggest you do that... and mash profiles too... otherwise you will have issues like this pop up all the time. Even Brad Smith who created Beersmith suggests that you only use the profiles that come with the program as a convenient starting point for customizing your own.

This is a good tutorial...


And Marshall Schott from Brülosophy has a good one as well...


Question on your sparge... did the sparge water in your mash tun fall below the level of the grains? If you let your grains go dry they could have settled and created channeling which would prevent you from rinsing all the sugars. When I fly sparge I always put more in the HLT than I need and just sparge until I've hit my boil volume. All the while making sure there is water about 2 inches above the grain bed the whole time. You can change the mash volumes that Beersmith. You can change the water to grain ratio for mashing and the sparge volumes to suite your needs.

Thanks for the videos.

I did make an attempt to set up my equipment profile. I changed my setup to All Grain plastic cooler and put the sizes in. I estimated the deadspace and boil off etc.. I should definitely do a mock boil and measure the actual deadspace volume.

I kept one or two inches above my grain through the whole sparge and hit my boil volume right about when my HLT tank ran out. I could have maybe drained another quarter gallon or more from the mash tun, but i feel like my volumes were in line which is why I'm so confused.

One thing I'm reading now that I don't do is stir. I mash in and stir to incorporate the grain and prevent clumps, but after that I don't disturb the grain bed. I'm reading that a lot of people stir a couple times during the mash and then again before sparging...

I'm thinking it's either that or my grain crush was not good enough on this order..

 

[kevin58]

Take those measurements rather than guesstimate and yes, stirring will help but grain crush might help more. in 20+ years of brewing the single best piece of equipment I ever bought, still to this day, is my grain mill.

 

[JaymzMF]

The biggest things that helped my efficiency was building a water profile with Brunwater, which it looks like you did. I also use distilled. Recirculating my mash throughout and to me most important is to stir every 15 minutes thoroughly. I think even with my HERMS, there was different temps going on throughout the mash tun. Ever since these changes, I get a consistent 90%.
Also, your thermometer. I had issues with it as well. Calibrate it. Get some ice water and place in for a few minutes. Adjust it with the screw on the back until it reads 32. You'll want to stir the ice water occasionally as you do this. Also, boil some water and do the same thing at whatever your boiling temp is for your altitude. Mine is 204 here in Reno.
I also use a accurate digital thermometer. Once things are going on my HERMS, my controller will be reading 152 for example, and my dial thermometer on side of the mash tun will match perfectly. I spot check with the digital one and it always matches too.

 

[JAnderson]

The biggest things that helped my efficiency was building a water profile with Brunwater, which it looks like you did. I also use distilled. Recirculating my mash throughout and to me most important is to stir every 15 minutes thoroughly. I think even with my HERMS, there was different temps going on throughout the mash tun. Ever since these changes, I get a consistent 90%.
Also, your thermometer. I had issues with it as well. Calibrate it. Get some ice water and place in for a few minutes. Adjust it with the screw on the back until it reads 32. You'll want to stir the ice water occasionally as you do this. Also, boil some water and do the same thing at whatever your boiling temp is for your altitude. Mine is 204 here in Reno.
I also use a accurate digital thermometer. Once things are going on my HERMS, my controller will be reading 152 for example, and my dial thermometer on side of the mash tun will match perfectly. I spot check with the digital one and it always matches too.

Thanks. Never thought to stir will be adding that to my process. Definitely doing some calibrations on thermometers. Its crazy how off some of these can be. I've used my Thermapen for a few years now too so its due for a calibration.

 

[JAnderson]

Take those measurements rather than guesstimate and yes, stirring will help but grain crush might help more. in 20+ years of brewing the single best piece of equipment I ever bought, still to this day, is my grain mill.

Yeah I was hoping I could get several more recipes done relying on NB's store crush to skip that expense. But it's becoming clear how important that is and also how unimportant or quickly and crudely it's probably done by NB before they ship my grains.

 

[Ralphie0523]

Yeah I was hoping I could get several more recipes done relying on NB's store crush to skip that expense. But it's becoming clear how important that is and also how unimportant or quickly and crudely it's probably done by NB before they ship my grains.

I agree a mill is important for efficiency, I gained 10 points just off that change alone. The other thing I haven’t seen here is that anything pre-crushed may have been around a while before being used. Milling grain and leaving it sit a long time definitely had bad long term effects on extract potential.

To me, mash efficiency is one of those things that a lot of little things tend to add up. I still fluctuate about 3-4 points efficiency (69-73), but I also tend to mash about 35-45 mins.

Good luck on the next brews, there is a lot to get right and dialing in takes time.