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Psylocide
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Sounds like you need to upgrade to some buckets
Spend money on more equipment?
Have you even been following this thread, brah?
30 min mash Success!
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Spend money on more equipment?
Have you even been following this thread, brah?
jump_xiii
Well-Known Member
I no chill in the kettle which has a tap, so I aerate by transferring vigorously from that into a fermentation bucket below. Now I add my yeast at the same time so it gets well stirred up.
No extra equipment, no hassle!
No extra equipment, no hassle!
jump_xiii
Well-Known Member
As I write this I'm 20 mins into a 30 min mash. Might as well give it a try!
If you have iodine you can take a sample and test for starch conversion to sugar. A drop of iodine on a white surface like a plate, a drop of wort in it and if there is starch it will turn blue or black. If it doesn't change color you have no starch left to convert.
Did a 45 minute mash yesterday and dropped my BIAB pourover sparge from 8L (two separate 4L pourovers before bag squeezing) to 4L. My efficiency varies from brew to brew, but I definitely lost a couple points with these moves. I'll try another 45 minute mash with my next brew, but go back to the 8L sparge to see where that gets me, since I suspect that had the bigger impact on my efficiency.
Regardless of anything else, this was definitely my shortest brewday, but that's due more to other streamlining moves than just the shorter mash, including getting my strike water out of the hot tap with the water heater turned up to the max (water coming out at 61C), grinding my grains the night before (makes a difference when you hand-mill with a Corona), and better chilling practices, including faster chilling with higher flow rates and moving the chiller around more, as well as only chilling to within 3-4C of fermentation temp before pitching so that the ferm chamber can do the rest of the work during the lag time. All told, I was done with pretty much everything cleaned up (save a couple small implements in the sink that I washed last night with the dishes) in three and a half hours, which made the wife very happy - she's supportive of my brewing but she hates brewdays...
Regardless of anything else, this was definitely my shortest brewday, but that's due more to other streamlining moves than just the shorter mash, including getting my strike water out of the hot tap with the water heater turned up to the max (water coming out at 61C), grinding my grains the night before (makes a difference when you hand-mill with a Corona), and better chilling practices, including faster chilling with higher flow rates and moving the chiller around more, as well as only chilling to within 3-4C of fermentation temp before pitching so that the ferm chamber can do the rest of the work during the lag time. All told, I was done with pretty much everything cleaned up (save a couple small implements in the sink that I washed last night with the dishes) in three and a half hours, which made the wife very happy - she's supportive of my brewing but she hates brewdays...
Can you tighten that Corona mill any more. I find that the tighter I have mine set, the higher the efficiency. You have to get the grain particles wet through to gelatinize the starches and convert them to sugars and you have to leach the sugars back out. With a very fine milling the gelatinization/conversion happen very quickly and it is easy to get most of the sugars leached out too. With BIAB there doesn't appear to be any downside to milling fine as there would be with a conventional tun.
My last brew before this one came in at 92% mash efficiency, thanks to a very thin mash (it was a session beer) and big pourover sparge. This one was closer to 85%, not far from what I usually get with a grainbill this size, but still a bit of room to grow.
That to say that my grind is already pretty fine - most of the grain particles are no more than a couple millimeters across, with plenty of flour, of course. Closing the gap much more would mean grinding the metal plates together when I mill, and the tighter it goes, the longer it takes to mill as well.
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Psylocide
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Lol... I'd like to get to a point where I'm not pleased with 85% mash efficiency.
Especially with a 30 min mash.
Not really displeased with 85%, but it's about consistency.
...and squeezing the EVERLOVING LIFEBLOOD out of the pathetic, slimy, insignificant grains! mwahaha! Mwahahaha! MUWAHAHAHAHA!
Actually, the main issue is that my 90% is everyone else's 77% in terms of grain to gravity ratio. I brew with cheap Chinese 2-row base because that's the main base malt available here in China and imported stuff like Weyermann costs three or four times as much, but the potential gravity is somewhere in the 1.031 range. Since I BIAB 6+gallon batches in a 9 gallon pot, it behooves me to squeeze as much as I can out of my grains, for capacity reasons.
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That's right... I remember you talking about that.
I guess I'm at the point where I figure a target and if I'm over, it's just a happy accident and if I'm under, well... no big deal. Consistency will come for me soon enough. Now that I've got ferm temps under control and have worked out some of the major bugs in my process, the next to tackle are the snakes in the grass regarding mash efficiency, and attenuation.
But this is my second all grain beer, and I nailed the flavor I was going for, got great conversion, great attenuation and shortened the brew day. It was a great success and a huge confidence boost. I'm heading in the right direction.
Indeed you are, and probably further down the road than I am - I still put out a stinker once every four or five brews, and brewday glitches abound almost every time I brew.
Reflecting on my last post, I might end up sticking with Sunday's process, including the lower sparge volume. Since I cold water sparge, adding another 4 liters of lukewarm wort to the kettle means waiting longer before reaching a boil. Between that and the 45 minute mash, I probably saved 25-30 minutes off the brewday. Then again, I could get the same effect from just heating the first 4L of sparge water while mashing.
Decisions, decisions...
Looks like my next brewday will be a 30 minute mash with a 4L hot sparge and a 4L cold sparge, because changing just one variable at a time is for boring people, like scientists and doctors. We kindergarten EFL teachers like to live our lives by the seats of our pants.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that... there's still plenty of room for mistakes and improvements, this is only my second AG, so it could be an extreme case of beginners luck.
Or, lots of research and just "going for it" paying off in a big way.
Let me know how it turns out.
Next brew day, I'll definitely be heating the kettle to boiling temp while sparging, which will save some time. That was one of those "DUH!" moments I had after a couple of people mentioned it.
I still think I'll mill my grains a day or two ahead of time, just because it's one less thing I have to do that day and I can't think of a possible ill-effect from doing that.
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As promised... here is a pic of the final product. It's been in the keg a little over a 10 days and the carb is just about right. The head has developed a bit more in the last few days.
This wheat is very good... well balanced bitterness and a huge punch of citrus on the nose, orange, lemon, hints of grapefruit, and flows into the flavor of the beer. Another successful hopstand/dry hop for flavor test, I'm very pleased.
I think it needs a bit more time to condition, but I could drink these one after the other at this point.
Cheers.
This wheat is very good... well balanced bitterness and a huge punch of citrus on the nose, orange, lemon, hints of grapefruit, and flows into the flavor of the beer. Another successful hopstand/dry hop for flavor test, I'm very pleased.
I think it needs a bit more time to condition, but I could drink these one after the other at this point.
Cheers.
TheCADJockey
ALL YOUR BASE
It looks... so... MAGICAL
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It looks... so... MAGICAL
Yeah... unfortunately, the head dissipated some due to getting the lighting right. I'm still a noob with my DSLR.
Tastes every bit as good as it looks though.
Great looking tasty beverage. Yum.
Beautiful beer. They're still bottle conditioning, but my session IPA is that same color and cloudiness (I really need to get a ferm chamber capable of cold crashing...). Hoping they'll look that nice after the pour, but probably not.
TheCADJockey
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I like the last picture. The lack of focus really says something about society as a whole.
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Had a crack at a shorter mash for todays brew. I went with 40 mins sacc rest and a mash out for 5 mins. Not as short as yours but a reduction from 60-90 mins sacc rest and a 10 minute mash-out.
The result: 92% mash efficiency. (Tinkering with my pH also). So far so good. I'll be interested to see if the beer attenuates as planned. I expect it will.
Congratulations on being so adventurous as to try a 40 minute mash. Most people won't even stray that far from their 60 to 90 minute mash. Coupled with the shorter mash you had great efficiency so I would suspect that you have good milling. Are you ready to experiment with anything shorter? I suspect that you could easily have the same efficiency with a 30 minute mash.
wobdee
Junior Member
Have you guys tried these short mashes with Continental Pilsner malt?
I think you are completely right. 30 mins I opened the lid for a stir. Everything looked clear. Let it sit another 10 mins to satisfy my inner intransigence. I did a conversion test at 40 mins but could in all likelihood have done it sooner. Figured small steps was better than none at all. Next brew I will do a 30 minute mash for sure.
My crush is solid. Two passes gives me an extremely homogenous grist. This really is the key to the whole time efficiency debate IMHO
Would you please do a conversion test at 10, 20, and 30 minutes? Your crush doesn't look as fine as mine and your mash may not be done as quickly as mine. I'd like to see what you get.:rockin:
Will do. Read your post on the short mashes with much interest. My crush is as fine as I need with regard to efficiency and consistency. Recent pH adjustments seem to be bringing the former up even more.
More and more it seems that the more established arbitrary 60 minute mash lengths are extra to requirements with the systematic adjustments for BIAB factored in.
Regarding chemistry in the mash. A few questions which I have not done my homework to answer.
Is there much going on in the way of more snipping of the already converted sugars into smaller simpler sugars by the beta amylase that is not picked up by a conversion test?
With more complex malts where a higher FG is expected does additional time become more important?
Do these slower reactions play a significant role with a finer milling of the grains? Presumably they happen more rapidly also.
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pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
Don't think we have enough info in regards to shorter vs longer sugar chains, which would be directly related to the attenuation. We've seen a number of posts regarding conversion in x minutes, but very few posting attenuation besides rm-mn saying he hasn't had any attenuation issues.
I would think that less modified malts might need more time, but probably still done within 40 minutes.
I would think that less modified malts might need more time, but probably still done within 40 minutes.
Here are my attenuation numbers from my past few batches, all with a 30 minute mash except for a blonde which was 45 minutes because I was making breakfast.
I can provide more data later on things like grain bill, yeast and attenuation. I'm on my tablet not and don't feel like fighting auto correct.
The last two batches I started manually manipulating the default attenuation values provided by Brewer's Friend.
APA, expected 1.021, actual 1.012
IPA, expected 1.017, actual 1.010
IPA, expected, 1.017, actual 1.013
IIPA, expected 1.015, actual 1.014
Blonde, expected 1.010, actual 1.009
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
That's interesting, as they're all lower than expected. I would've suspected the shorter mash time would provide longer chains, not shorter ones.
When you get the chance please provide mash temp, and yeasts used. I wonder if the shorter temp gives greater prevalence to the beta/alpha balance in the mash temp. So a lower temp provides even lower fg and a higher temp provides even higher fg.
When you get the chance please provide mash temp, and yeasts used. I wonder if the shorter temp gives greater prevalence to the beta/alpha balance in the mash temp. So a lower temp provides even lower fg and a higher temp provides even higher fg.
My 45 minute Caramel Amber Ale went from 1.051 to 1.008. That's 84% attenuation with slightly underpitched S-04 slurry. That was helped along by the pound of homemade candi syrup at the end of the boil, but it's perfectly in line with previous 60 minute mashes of the same recipe.
Using iodine for testing conversion is mostly a negative for starch. If it turns blue there is starch left. Supposedly the iodine will get a more reddish hue if there is more fermentable sugar in the sample but I wasn't able to see it, perhaps because the conversion happened so fast that I missed the intermediate reading. From my perspective the sure way to see if you got the simple sugars is to let the beer ferment and compare the predicted FG with the actual. My beers that I've done BIAB seem to always ferment to a lower FG than predicted which I interpret as having plenty of simple sugars.
I haven't seen any real difference with beers containing caramel malts or even darker malts in respect to time. I need more brews to be sure of this. The imperial stout (OG 1.094) had plenty of darker malts and has an FG of 1.020, 4 point below predicted.
I've just brewed a Fat Tire clone again since the previous batch attenuated more than I wanted. The mash temp this time was 159 as opposed to the 153 of the previous batch which had a FG of 1.010 when it was predicted to end at 1.019. I'll have more data when this latest batch has a chance to ferment out.
Thanks RM, I was just thinking the same. There was a BYO article indicating that homebrew mashes do not denature enzymes quickly. So I think that is why many of us end up with lower FG.
A little more data. All fermentation temps were in the middle range for the yeast. No starters. Smack packs were simply smacked. Dry yeast was pitched right on top of the wort.
APA, expected 1.021, actual 1.012, yeast Wyeast 1968, mash temp 151F
IPA, expected 1.017, actual 1.010, yeast Wyeast 1056, mash temp 152F
IPA, expected, 1.017, actual 1.013, yeast US-05, mash temp 152F
IIPA, expected 1.015, actual 1.014, yeast US-05, mash temp 152F
Blonde, expected 1.010, actual 1.009, yeast Wyeast 1968, mash temp 148F
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
Very interesting info. Would love to have a large data set to produce a new attenuation formula.
This is intriguing. I think I need to raise my mash temps....I don't have any data...I think you guys are onto something here, subbed and thx.
One more data point for you. I brewed a Fat Tire clone on March 11, 2015 with a mash temperature of 158 for an OG of 1.050. Today's (March 21, 2015) gravity reading is 1.020 whereas Brewtarget predicted 1.017. It might drop the other 3 points in the next couple days yet.
Oh yeah, the mash time was 10 minutes.
Another data point. I brewed that same Fat Tire clone on March 18, 2015 with a mash temperature of 159 for the same OG of 1.050. Today's gravity sits at 1.022, the fourth day after brewing. This one was mashed for, gasp!, 5 minutes.
Oh yeah, the mash time was 10 minutes.
Another data point. I brewed that same Fat Tire clone on March 18, 2015 with a mash temperature of 159 for the same OG of 1.050. Today's gravity sits at 1.022, the fourth day after brewing. This one was mashed for, gasp!, 5 minutes.
pricelessbrewing
Brewer's Friend Software Manager
Maybe you should call them fast tire instead!
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One more data point for you. I brewed a Fat Tire clone on March 11, 2015 with a mash temperature of 158 for an OG of 1.050. Today's (March 21, 2015) gravity reading is 1.020 whereas Brewtarget predicted 1.017. It might drop the other 3 points in the next couple days yet.
Oh yeah, the mash time was 10 minutes.
Another data point. I brewed that same Fat Tire clone on March 18, 2015 with a mash temperature of 159 for the same OG of 1.050. Today's gravity sits at 1.022, the fourth day after brewing. This one was mashed for, gasp!, 5 minutes.
This is crazy.
What was your efficiency on the 5 min mash? I'm assuming it's in line with your "standard" efficiency.
The bigger question I have now is, what are we missing out on by mashing so quickly?
I'm tempted to do two brews with the same recipe, one with a "traditional" 60 min mash, and one with a short mash, say... 15 mins, and do a side-by-side comparison.
Also, I've noticed that both of my BIAB brews, the overnight mash and the 30 min mash, both finished 4-5 points lower than expected. First was rehydrated Notty, second was rehydrated US-05.
My initial thought on the overnight mash was that the falling temps overnight (~20°) led to a more fermentable wort, but now I'm not so sure. I mashed the next iteration for 30 mins at the same temp, and still ended 4 points lower than expected.
I'd be interested to learn if the finer crush is to blame/thank for this.
That's one of the things I'm trying to find out. One thing I noticed missing is the long wait for the mash to complete. Since I wanted to make sure the mash was stopped as quickly as possible I used boiling water to sparge so it would emulate a mash out. I hardly had time to heat the water on the last few attempts! I do have to wait a bit for the taste tests as the beer carbonates in the bottles.
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