2nd Racking | Back Sweeten

[jonereb]

I'm a noob about to do my 2nd racking. It's a one gallon carboy of muscadine red wine. Can I now add campden and potassium sorbate to stop all fermentation and prepare for back sweetening? (After this racking, I think I'll need one more final racking.)

Thinking ahead, how much sugar should I add to one gallon to achieve a semi-dry. My last hydrometer reading was .995.

 

[miller4528]

im new at this too but hopefully i can help an if im wrong someone can help us both. im making a batch of peach mango now and my 2nd racking my reading was .996 i think i have it written down but not with me so since i was under the 1.000 i added potassium sorbate to stop the fermentation because to my understanding under 0.999 its just alcohol and no sugar left for the yeast to feed on so the way i see it is adding the PS. stunts the yeast an kills it faster then letting it die off slowly adding much more time to the whole process. how ever it as i said stunts and does not flat out kill it right away so dont backsweeten right away because there is a chance yeast could still survive. allow the yeast to die an settle before racking again and depending on i guess the brewer your could allow it to bulk age or bottle once its clear enough for you.
As for the semi dry taste you want to reach that is up too your taste when i backsweeten my last batch i made it extra sweet the girlfriend prefers it tht way what i did is racked it into my fermentation tank ska gallon bucket stirred it good to get the carbonation out then took enough to more then fill the test tube and added sugar syrup(1:1 cup of water and sugar heated low until sugar is gone) to it that i made before hand to the glass of wine little at a time until it was sweet enough for her an then tested tht to get a SG reading. then its as simple as bringing the whole gallon to the same SG reading. ive also learned from another brewer that to eliminate the sugar after taste in extra sweet wines use 100% juice to backsweeten instead of the sugar i have yet to try it but i will on my next batch.

 

[jonereb]

I read the thread about alternative back sweetening methods. Since I'm making muscadine wine, I don't want to use store bought juice and dilute the muscadine taste. I'd consider stealing a few cups of my wine and heating it just enough to help dissolve the sugar. Or maybe dissolving sugar isn't that much of an issue; maybe it'll dissolve with a little stirring. Regardless, I'll probably add campden and potassium sorbate at my next racking to help kill off the yeast. Then, on my 3rd racking, somewhere around Thanksgiving, I may back sweeten and bottle. I must say, the wine is looking very good right now.

 

[Yooper]

Sorbate doesn't stop an active fermentation. What it does is inhibit yeast reproduction. That means adding it to a wine with yeast in the bottom of the vessel, or to a wine cloudy with suspended yeast that it will do nothing.

To use sorbate, the wine must be finished (usually .990-.996) and totally and completely clear. When it's no longer dropping any lees in a new vessel after at least 60 days, the wine can be racked onto a combination of sorbate and campden (sorbate works better in the presence of campden, but the campden also works as an antioxidant so it's beneficial) and then after a few days the wine can be sweetened and then a few days later bottled if it remains clear.

Remember, sorbate and campden do NOT kill yeast! We don't want bottle bombs here, as glass grenades are dangerous, so it's important to remember that.

 

[jonereb]

Yooper, thanks for the info. At first racking a month ago, my wine was at .995, if memory serves. I'm about to rack again. Let's make sure I understand: if I add a crushed campden tablet and the appropriate amount of sorbate, my wine should be sufficiently finished reproducing yeast. Right? Safe to bottle after waiting a few days as you explained above? (I probably won't bottle until at least one more racking.)

After racking, I'll top with a commercial wine - no more than a few cups at most. Should I wait a few days before topping to avoid the chance of reinvigorating the yeast with the introduction of new sugar from the commercial wine?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper, thanks for the info. At first racking a month ago, my wine was at .995, if memory serves. I'm about to rack again. Let's make sure I understand: if I add a crushed campden tablet and the appropriate amount of sorbate, my wine should be sufficiently finished reproducing yeast.

No.

In order for the sorbate to be effective, the wine must be totally and completely clear without suspended yeast or other solids, and no longer dropping any lees at all after at least 60 days in a new vessel.

The FG doesn't really matter. What matters is that there is little yeast still in the wine, so that inhibiting yeast reproduction is effective.

If the wine is still dropping lees, any lees at all, there is still hundreds of billions of yeast in the wine and fermentation will restart even with sorbate added.

Stabilizing should be the LAST thing you do. It should be done when the wine no longer needs to be racked, and is just a few days from bottling.

When you top up with commercial wine, use a dry wine. There are no fermentable sugars in a finished dry wine to restart fermentation.

 

[jonereb]

Okay. I just need to rack and not worry about the FG or fermentation right now. Just keep on keeping on until no more lees. Honestly, I thought lees was residue from the must, not just yeast. Thx for the explanation. My wine is looking good and clear, but I still have lees settling. It's getting there.

 

[lukebuz]

Yup, the yeast multiply by many many times, and all those microscopie little fungi need to settle out over time. Time is the key word here!

 

[AcmeRidgeRose_Nate]

This has been a very good helpful thread for me as well...thank you.

Question on the lees and settlement discussion....can letting settlement in the bottom a carboy for a long period of time change or ruin the taste of the wine??? Does that settlement taste get bad and change the wine taste or does that not matter if its air tight??? Guess Im asking...if after ur 1st and 2nd racking....if you let some of the settlement in there for say 3 months without doing anything..can it affect the taste...give it a bad taste...or is it ok to leave it in there???

 

[Yooper]

This has been a very good helpful thread for me as well...thank you.

Question on the lees and settlement discussion....can letting settlement in the bottom a carboy for a long period of time change or ruin the taste of the wine??? Does that settlement taste get bad and change the wine taste or does that not matter if its air tight??? Guess Im asking...if after ur 1st and 2nd racking....if you let some of the settlement in there for say 3 months without doing anything..can it affect the taste...give it a bad taste...or is it ok to leave it in there???

Yes, sediment in the wine long term can absolutely ruin the taste of the wine. In severe cases, the autolysis that takes place can have a fecal taste and smell. In less severe cases, the wine can just taste "dirty" or odd, or stale, etc.

I wouldn't go more than 60 days with any lees, but a very light dusting is probably ok for a bit longer.

 

[Twerp129]

It should be noted that lots of wineries do a "sur lie" where they leave a wine on the fine (sometimes even gros) lees for years even. Hell, vintage Champagne must by law spend three years on it's fine lees.

The lees can add lots of complexity to a wine. If the wine tastes good why rack? If the off flavors start to develop get it off the lees. Autolysis seems to me to be the most overblown home wine maker malady out there. Some of the most amazing wines I've ever had have been bulk aged on their lees for five plus years.

The lees are really nothing other than another tool in your box. If you want something zingy and fruit forward, there is really no reason to leave a wine on it's lees. If you're after that creamy mouthfeel, and brioche characteristics then it's worth it to leave the wine be, while keeping a nose out for off flavors.

 

[Yooper]

It should be noted that lots of wineries do a "sur lie" where they leave a wine on the fine (sometimes even gros) lees for years even. Hell, vintage Champagne must by law spend three years on it's fine lees.

The lees can add lots of complexity to a wine. If the wine tastes good why rack? If the off flavors start to develop get it off the lees. Autolysis seems to me to be the most overblown home wine maker malady out there. Some of the most amazing wines I've ever had have been bulk aged on their lees for five plus years.

The lees are really nothing other than another tool in your box. If you want something zingy and fruit forward, there is really no reason to leave a wine on it's lees. If you're after that creamy mouthfeel, and brioche characteristics then it's worth it to leave the wine be, while keeping a nose out for off flavors.

It depends on the yeast strain- some are more suited to aging sur lie. Another thing to note is that the wine is stirred when aging sur lie- it's not just sitting on dormant/decaying yeast the whole time.

 

[Twerp129]

Plenty of wines out there that sit sur lie without being stirred. It's definitely common for whites though.