2L flask useless for 10 gal batches?

[Homer]

I have never used starters before, but have recently jumped up to 10 gallon batches, so figured I should start. I built a stir place and started reading about flask sizes, talked to a LHBS guy (kid) as well as did a few mock calculations using mrmalty, and it seemed like I might be able to get away with a 2L flask, so I bought one (plus the 5L was huge and expensive). Now I'm starting to have second thoughts. Some of the calculations came in at around 2L or just below, or even less if I stepped, but still a little foggy on how that works. I still brew 5 gal occasionally, but will be mostly doing 10, and probably not have many of those brews be below the 1.050 mark.

Should I:
Return the 2L and get the 5L, and if so, will my diy stirplate still work and can I still do 5 gal starter with the huge flask?

Use the 2L and step it up?

Thanks

 

[TheZymurgist]

I'd say it depends on which you value more, time or money. If money, keep the 2L and do stepped starters. If time, go with the 5L, that way you only have to make one starter.

Stepping up is easy. Make a starter, cold crash after it's done (less flocculent strains need to be cold crashed longer, so keep that in mind,) decant, and throw new wort on top of the yeast from the previous starter.

 

[podz]

Not all stir plates are created equal. You don't need to pull a vortex deeper than about 2cm, but if that doesn't even work then the motor is too small.

 

[LandoLincoln]

As I said in another thread...

I think that 2L flasks are the sweet spot. 1L flasks are pretty useless for 5+ gallon batches and 5L flasks are too pricey and aren't as versatile. Let me explain.

95% of the time I brew 11g batches or bigger, and 95% of the time a single 2L flask works for me. My friend and I recently brewed an 11g batch of 1.080 beer that mrmalty said I needed a 3.2L starter (adjusting for the age of the yeast packs and number of packs). I already have two 2L flasks but I only have one stir plate. So I borrowed a friend's stir plate and I made the starter. Let's say for argument's sake that he wanted to use an Irish ale yeast and I wanted to use an English ale yeast. We easily could have split the yeast starter into two separate batches. Had we had only one big 5L flask we wouldn't have been able to do that.

Commercial stir plates are pricey, but homemade stir plates are very cheap and they're very easy to make.

 

[thekraken]

Homebrewdad just posted a calculator on his website that does all the step calculations for you:
http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/brand-new-yeast-starter-calculator-502343/

I haven't used it yet but I plan on using it with my measly 1 L flask. [Edit] I haven't used it to actually make a starter.

I found it interesting to play with that calculator and see just what size starter my small flask is capable of.

[Edit] For example, according to that calculator, you could use your 2 L to build up to a 1.100 OG beer in 4 steps (10 gallon batch). You could make a starter for a 1.071 OG beer in just two steps.

 

[rekoob]

I like the BLING of a 5L flask... I don't have one, but like the way it looks.

Do I need one? no. Do you need one? no. I only say that cuz i'm sure you must have something you could make the starter in if you wanted to do anything larger then your flask could do, which you may not really need to.

Some use coffee pots (which you could get for .50 at a thrift store if you don't have one), some use gallon jugs, and lots more items being used that you might already have.

If you're like me and there is something about that 5L flask that is just calling your name... then spend the money. It hasn't called my name enough for me to spend the cash on it... YET.

 

[RmikeVT]

I brew 11g batches and I have a 2L flask. When I brew a bigger beer, I typically do a step starter. 1.75L starter, cold crash after fermentation, and then step up based on how many cells I need. I also use fermcapS in the starter to help with blow-offs. I find if I do this I can usually get the cells I need. I don't often brew beers bigger than 1.065. When I do, it is usually an IPA or DIPA and I will use US-05 dry yeast, so no issue there.

Because stepping up takes more time etc. and I split the 11g between two carboys, to save time and effort I will use specialty liquid yeast w/ a starter on one batch and dry yeast in the other batch. It is nice because it adds a little variety to the different batches, so I'm not drinking 10g of the exact same beer for 2 months.

Really, you can brew up a blonde with noble hops and pilsner malt and ferment one using a starter and a liquid belgian strain, and then use US-05 on the other one and get two completely different beers. Or use Belle Saison dry yeast on one and get a belgian blonde and a saison. When I really want to exact duplicate beers, I will do a step-up and pitch 1L into one and 1L into the other.

 

[wardens355]

Morebeer sells a 5L flask that is relatively cheap at $40 (lab quality are usually over $100). I have two and use them for all my starters, ales and lagers. For a 10-gallon ale batch at 1.060 starting gravity, you will need somewhere around 2.5 L without stepping up, so going with the 5L may be more convenient if you don't want to step up. I typically brew 11-gallon batches, splitting into two carboys with two different yeasts. I grow two extra large starters so I can harvest ~100-150 billion cells each for storage in my 'yeast library', and pitch the rest into the carboys. I don't see an issue with growing 1L starters for 5-gallon batches in the 5L flask (just spin at a lower rpm), but you may need to sharpee on some graduation marks for 0.5 L, 1 L, 1.5 L. I transitioned from 2L to 5L a while back and am happy with that decision.

For the stir plate, you will just have to see how much liquid you can get spinning.

As suggested above, use Fermcap to prevent your flask from foaming over, especially if you are sticking with the 2L flask.

 

[Hammy71]

I use two 2L flasks for some of my 10 gallon brews. But I have two 5L flasks for when I make 10 gallon of lager. You'll be stepping up for a month before you get enough yeast for a lager using a 2L flask for 10 gallons. My stirplate needed some modifications to handle the 5L though. I built little tables with the center cut out for the stirplate. The motor could handle the volume, but the 5L flasks were precariously perched on them. For the $15 dollar difference (and if your plate can handle it....) Why not?

http://www.homebrewing.org/Erlenmeyer-Flask-5000ml_p_1252.html

 

[davejanssen]

I have 5l flasks and I really like them. I prefer having extra headroom and my old stirplates don't have a problem. I am often trying to roughly triple a smack pack and that is 2L on a stir plate according to Mr Malty. I generally don't make starters larger than ~2L but still that takes a flask >2l.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I use two 2L flasks for some of my 10 gallon brews. But I have two 5L flasks for when I make 10 gallon of lager. You'll be stepping up for a month before you get enough yeast for a lager using a 2L flask for 10 gallons.

Another good reason to just stick to ales.

 

[podz]

Another good reason to just stick to ales.

Cognitive bias.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Cognitive bias.

Cognitive YOUR MOM!

Wait, that's no good.

Your MOM is a cognitive bias!

No, that's no good either.

Cognitive by-ASS!

Better, but still needs work.

 

[Natdavis777]

I bought 2 1-gal jugs in addition to my 2L flask for starters. The jugs have flat bottoms and I dont have issues with throwing the bar. As for a waste on the flask though, its my go-to for starters. I did a 2 step 2112 lager yeast for my cream ale and its going just fine right now in the fermenter. If you start your starter a week in advance, that gives you time to not only step up the starter, but cold crash it as well and have it ready for brew day. No need to spend the extra money on a huge 5L starter.

 

[thCapn]

I use a 5L flask and a single Wyeast smack pack for my starters, no step-ups. It's convenient and I can make starters up to 4 liters for big beers.


--
th Cap'n in Portland, Oregon

 

[MaxStout]

I found a 3L Erlenmeyer on Amazon for just a few bucks more than the 2L flasks. Big enough to do single step starters for all but my biggest ales (5 gal), and 2-step for lagers and high-gravity ales.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I do 4l starters almost exclusively. I brew 10+ gallon batches. Ymmv. Your calculator will give yyou different answers.

 

[Natdavis777]

I do 4l starters almost exclusively. I brew 10+ gallon batches. Ymmv. Your calculator will give yyou different answers.

I had to google ymmv....

 

[OleBrewing]

I do 2 liter starters in a wine jug using the full packet or vial of yeast for my starter for 11 to 12 gallons. I will save a little yeast from that starter in a mason jar and keep in the fridge for the next round. This is with ales by the way with no problems. Oh and I do the old swish around starter method with no stir plate. With the combined packet/vial there should be enough yeast for 10 gallon batches.

 

[Brettomomyces]

I use some 4L cambro kitchen storage containers, they're flat bottomed and work great on my DIY stir plate. Nice wide opening allows collecting of krausen as well.

 

[cannman]

It was in my first 10 gal attempt that I had fermentation stall due to not enough yeast being pitched. I made a full 2L on a stir plate, split, for a 1.072 og and only reach 1.022fg in one carboy and the other hit 1.012 which was acceptable. It was way too much work, ingredients, money, and time to not have this go down right.
I now have a 5000ml Erlenmeyer to 10gal batches to make appropriate batches per BeerSmith 2.

You've got to have the right tool for the job. $40 at morebeer.com

 

[jimyson]

I have both the 2 and 5 and only use the 5 now, that is unless I am splitting the batch and using different yeast. I seem to either push the line or need more room so leave the small one on the shelf.

I guess I also can't see a starter volume less that 1.5L even for a low gravity. And even then, some of my starters throw some krausen even on a stir plate.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Homer]

Wow, a lot more replies than anticipated, thanks!
Looks like most of you are telling me to get the 5L, I do not have too much time to devote to the hobby (unless its brew day), so having to avoid stepping sounds pretty good.

My LHBS sells the 5L for $49.99, and morebeer sells them for $39.99,but $10 shipping. So price is the same (minus tax), both places say it is made from the same glass, but on my LHBS site, they recommend letting cool for a few min before the ice bath, do you think these two flasks are of the same quality (like, there's no way any of these are lab grade)? The 2L one that I will be returning now, looks pretty cheap, the lip around the hole is thicker on one side compared to the other, and the glass feels pretty thin. Is this typical for most of these being sold at this price point?

Thanks

 

[sandyeggoxj]

These are made in china flasks. They work okay but don't expect perfection. I have a 2l pyrex flask. That is a very nice piece of glassware.

One thing that I would like to point out is that most people that brew 10 gallons said they brew fine beer. I have never had their beer so I can't comment. But I know that from my experience I need around 700 billion yeast cells for a 10 gallon batch of 16ºP Ipa that finishes around 7% abv. Try making that much yeast in a 2L flask, especially without a stirplate!!

Anyway, with the larger flask you can employ this practice and pay off that flask in a few batches: http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/

Have fun!



EDIT: I should add that I pitch most of my ales at 1mil cells/ml/ºP. If you ever brew high gravity and want 1.5mil/ml/ºP then you'd be stepping up forever. There is a certain decreasing marginal return.

 

[Seven]

I had a 5L flask before I broke it like a knucklehead. One thing I didn't like about it was finding a place to crash cool it prior to decanting and pitching the next day. The 5L flasks are huge so make sure you have sufficient space for it in your fridge or elsewhere.

I decided to not replace my 5L flask and instead use multiple 2L flasks when necessary.

 

[Broham1]

Homebrewdad just posted a calculator on his website that does all the step calculations for you:
http://www.homebrewdad.com/yeast_calculator.php

Thanks so much for this! Awesome tool!

 

[wardens355]

Wow, a lot more replies than anticipated, thanks!
Looks like most of you are telling me to get the 5L, I do not have too much time to devote to the hobby (unless its brew day), so having to avoid stepping sounds pretty good.

My LHBS sells the 5L for $49.99, and morebeer sells them for $39.99,but $10 shipping. So price is the same (minus tax), both places say it is made from the same glass, but on my LHBS site, they recommend letting cool for a few min before the ice bath, do you think these two flasks are of the same quality (like, there's no way any of these are lab grade)? The 2L one that I will be returning now, looks pretty cheap, the lip around the hole is thicker on one side compared to the other, and the glass feels pretty thin. Is this typical for most of these being sold at this price point?

Thanks

The cheaper flasks are not manufactured to the QA/QC standards of lab-grade glassware, so they may not be exactly uniform and are probably less robust. The ones I got from Morebeer appear hefty enough for my liking. For wort prep, I have an electric range and cannot get myself to heat an erlenmeyer flask directly on the coil, so I prepare my wort in a pot.

I clean my flasks after each use by soaking in water for a day or so and rinsing. Before using again, I fill them with a low-strength PBW solution and spin for an hour, empty and rinse, and then sanitize with Star-San. This method requires no direct heating of the flask and I simply cool the wort in the pot and transfer to the flasks once cooled using a sterilized funnel.